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Author Topic: Problems With New Service (Provided by Origin)  (Read 1861 times)

gigio68

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Problems With New Service (Provided by Origin)
« on: November 22, 2019, 11:21:35 AM »

[Moderator Note: This post has been split off the "Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?" topic, as it is worthy of being a topic in its own right. Also, for reference, a "Think Broadband Forum post"]

Hi All,

I have been following "Interleaving - how long does it take to remove?" thread quite closely, hoping to learn more about interleaving and DLM.
I have read the basics @ https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM_system.htm.

  • BACKGROUND:
    I have had issues with the new ISP, providing me with a router which was not fit for purpose (ASUS DSL-AC68U, expensive but useless).
    It took three weeks for me to realise I had to get myself another router, as Origin were reluctant in believing that was the root cause of frequent drop-outs and, who knows, possibly loads of errors on the line?

  • THE NEW ROUTER:
    It is a TP-LINK TD-W9970 v3. I managed to tweak the config https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,14377.msg405570.html#msg405570 and I am now monitoring it via DSLStats.
    I have only got one day of data, so far, but I know that, since I got the new router, I have had an increase in DL speed (from 44Mbps, when using the ASUS router, to 60Mbps). I was recording the DL/UL speeds using speedtest-cli on a Raspberry pi connected via LAN into the router, before I discovered DSLStats.

  • INTERLEAVE DEPTH (bear with me, I am not expert on this  :( )
    From the data I have, I can see a depth of 4 for the Downlink and 2 for the Uplink.
    What I understood from https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm is that I am "one step" from FASTPATH, i.e. I will need to hope that the DLM is not stuck into the higher depths and that, at some point DLM will put me on the Fastpath.

  • WHAT DO I NEED TO MONITOR? (ES, FES, What else?)
    What is not clear to me is, now that I am logging data from my router with DSLStats, what do I need to check, in order to have some evidence that the DLM "might" (? or is?) be stuck?
    I can read 0 for ES and FES and it has been for the last day or so. From the other posts I read this is not a long time for DLM to go up one step and remove the interleave depth (will it?)
    What else do I need to monitor for the next couple of weeks?

  • PREVIOUS ROUTER PROBLEMS AND ISP
    Given the problems I had at the beginning with Origin and the router, could that have caused the DLM to be stuck?
    When talking to Origin technical guys, they told me different stories, from the copper to the capability of my FTCC, the distance from the cabinet, blah blah blah.
    I told them that I could reach 76Mbps with Plusnet. The issue was the router.
    Why are Origin still saying that OpenReach cannot see any problems with the line?
    I see from https://kitz.co.uk/adsl/DLM.htm that some ISPs are known to use NGA standard profile, hence Origin might not even bother asking OpenReach to put me on a NGA speed profile.

QUESTIONS
  • Should I ask Origin about what NGA profile they use, or they ask OpenReach to provide their managed lines? At the moment I am happy with the stability of the connection - No dropouts of service for the last week or so.
  • Can a disconnection from the DSL port - remove the DSL cable from the plug, as hinted here https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24069.msg405571.html#msg405571 - for a number of hours, cause the DLM to get unstuck?
  • If I reset the router - I have done a few resets to tweak it so I could get DSLStats to work - does the DLM see those resets as problems on the line, and hence "downgrade" my line with higher interleave depth?
  • Does high interleave depth mean lower speed, higher pings, both? I think it does, but I would just like to check.


Many thanks for whoever is keen to help. Sorry, I see I have many questions  :blush:


Jo

P.S. I posted a few questions on DLM to OpenReach Help on Twitter. Should I hope in an answer from them? :)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 05:28:59 PM by gigio68 »
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NewtronStar

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Re: Problems With New Service (Provided by Origin)
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2019, 11:34:53 PM »

Personally I would not get to involved in those mega graphs that you see in DSLstats these day I just click on Telnet Data on DSLstats and read the  Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec for example
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec

FEC:            6938867         28
CRC:            6               10
ES:             5               10
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0


I look at CRC's and then ES then SES and look at the DSL uptime to make sure there were no disconnects during those 24 hours and that's it. Only when you start to get random resyncs then would keep a close eye on SNRM for a few weeks to see if this is an inside or outside issue.

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kitz

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Re: Problems With New Service (Provided by Origin)
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2019, 04:27:55 AM »

Hi

Quote
ASUS DSL-AC68U

Oops :/   Unfortunately whilst Asus routers are usually very good.. the modem chipset in that particular model wasn't and it has caused problems for quite a lot of people.   Anyhow damage done and moving on...

Quote
I can see a depth of 4 for the Downlink and 2 for the Uplink.

May I just check that is the depth as it seems rather low?  Although saying that I'm working blind and not sure if the line is on a Huawei cab and has benefit of G.INP or not.
 
Possibly more useful in your case is the INP value in Bearer 0 and the delay.
INP=3 & Delay= 8 which indicates the Openreach profile of Interleave low.   Anything above that is Interleave High.

Quote
Given the problems I had at the beginning with Origin and the router, could that have caused the DLM to be stuck?

It certainly could have caused the line to be banded and/or caused Interleaving & Error Correction to be applied.
 - Banding is not the same as 'stuck'.   
 - Banding is an artificial speed cap deliberately placed on the line which ensues in a higher SNRM to give the line more stability.
 - Banding may also be referred to as 'capped'.

Quote
what do I need to check, in order to have some evidence that the DLM "might" (? or is?) be stuck?

Obvious signs of banding are that there is more than 6.3 dB SNRM immediately after a resync and that the sync speed will not go above a certain rate and is the same speed each time you sync which usually ends in 998.  I've given the Interleave Low params above.
 
TBF it is quite often hard to spot all the signs and some people assume their line is banded, when its not.  Reading line stats can be a black art... you have to look at several parameters and even then sometimes relies on gut instincts that comes from years of interpreting the data, simply because something looks 'odd'.
If you are new to linestats, then it's best posting full stats (telnet data) and let someone else look as it will give us a lot of the info that we need.   


Quote
hence Origin might not even bother asking OpenReach to put me on a NGA speed profile.

Depends who they are using to provision your line.   Origin have a weird history.   They were very good - then got got caught up in the Digital Region Fiasco which caused them a lot of damage reputation wise.
Then they picked up their socks invested in the company and started using a combination of their own network, Plusnet and Vodafone and for a while all was good again.  CS was good and calls answered promptly, they invested in a new call centre and took on new staff it all looked rosy.

Then they stopped using PN white label and moved most lines over to Vodafone...  who unfortunately suffered a lot of congestion problems.   Origin users were generally deemed to be more tech savvy than the bog standard VF user and more likely to notice.. so complaints ensued and the company started getting a bad rep again due to the VF congestion.   They weren't the only retailer who ended up having to drop VF wholesale, but I think damage may have been done and as the customer base decreased I think they may have started to struggle financially and had to lay a load of staff off yada yada.

So.....   back to your question.  I believe they are now using TT wholesale, which does actually have a pretty decent backhaul..  but they do use the standard profile by default.   
Years ago Origin told me that because they were also an Openreach customer they could change this directly when they were VF resellers.  Not sure if that also applies now they are with TT, but worth a try and won't harm in asking.

Quote
Should I ask Origin about what NGA profile they use

See above.  If your line is provisioned by TT wholesale then it will be Standard.
The reason I went into detail above.... if Origin are still also direct customers with Openreach because they also own their own network, then they should be able to run a GEA test on your line and check you DLM profile.


Quote
Can a disconnection from the DSL port - remove the DSL cable from the plug, as hinted here https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24069.msg405571.html#msg405571 - for a number of hours, cause the DLM to get unstuck?

No this never removes banding.    Artificially rate limiting is the only way we have ever seen some success if the line has been banded or interleaved. 

Re the other thread, there is something weird going on right now. My line (and a couple of those in the thread) shouldn't have been interleaved according to theory but they were.    Based on what you've said I don't think your line is 'stuck'. 


Quote
If I reset the router -

Depends on how many times.   Just a couple should be fine.


Quote
Does high interleave depth mean lower speed, higher pings, both? I think it does, but I would just like to check.

Yup.
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gigio68

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Re: Problems With New Service (Provided by Origin)
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2019, 10:25:24 PM »

Thanks for the thorough answers, Kitz.

Here it's the fullstats.html attached.

One more odd thing, I thought, comes from ADSLChecker, from BTWholesale (which is what OriginBroadband quoted they use to check my line, when I phoned them on Sat, to check if they thought I had been banded)
I have attached a screenshot where you can see that the Upstream Line Rate LOW seems to be higher (20Mbps) than the HIGH (13.4Mbps). I thought it was a bit odd.
This is from the Chippenham EXCHANGE connected to Cabinet8. Looking at another key post of yours, in the forum, the cabinet seems to be a Huawei 288 type, by the look of it. I will take a closer look next time.

So.....   back to your question.  I believe they are now using TT wholesale, which does actually have a pretty decent backhaul..  but they do use the standard profile by default.   
Years ago Origin told me that because they were also an Openreach customer they could change this directly when they were VF resellers.  Not sure if that also applies now they are with TT, but worth a try and won't harm in asking.

I asked one of their technical guys Sat. He was not aware of any of that.
So that I am clear. If they are using the NGA default, does it mean they will not put any of their customers on the NGA speed? - Does NGA default mean NO FASTPATH? <---- (Please say no!!!  :no:)

if Origin are still also direct customers with Openreach because they also own their own network, then they should be able to run a GEA test on your line and check you DLM profile.

Good point. I had a GEA test done by Plusnet, when I started with them 2 years ago (and a month), and I did not even know what that was. I have not been offered one by Origin.

Some of the thing the technical guy at Origin said on Sat were
  • He could see around 12 disconnections which had gone on within the previous 2 days.

These corresponded to the number of times I have done resyncs, when playing with DSLStats, as I had some initial issues in modifying the config xml of my router (which did not support DSLStats .... out of the box).
  • He carried on saying.... ".... this means that the DLM has been receiving this data and still thinks the line is not fully stable.... give it a few more days and hopefully it will sort itself out ...."
  • He did think that there was nothing that stopped Origin's customer from going onto the FASTPATH, other than the DLM, which was not under their control, but Openreach's

Hopefully the speed will go up soon.
Still "stuck" (from a consumer's perspective - consumer1 being my son and his PS4, though he should not complain as the pings are pretty low for Battlefields) at 60Mbps.

Again. Many thanks for your time on this.

Jo/Giuseppe

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 12:43:27 AM by gigio68 »
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j0hn

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Re: Problems With New Service (Provided by Origin)
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2019, 11:02:14 AM »

Your line isn't interleaved. It has G.INP enabled on both up/down directions

This is considerably better than fastpath, which is almost non existent on Huawei cabinets now.
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gigio68

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Re: Problems With New Service (Provided by Origin)
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2019, 03:56:09 PM »

Your line isn't interleaved. It has G.INP enabled on both up/down directions

This is considerably better than fastpath, which is almost non existent on Huawei cabinets now.

Any idea why I am only getting 60Mbps? The max I could get with Plusnet befor, assuming same line, was 76mbps, which is what the line is capable of.

Why are Interleave depths set at 4/2?

Will I ever get back to 76mbps or is 60 the max I am going to get with origin, and why would that be?
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j0hn

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Re: Problems With New Service (Provided by Origin)
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2019, 08:50:55 PM »

The line is capped at 60Mb (the 59,999 sync).

It gets capped from too many resyncs in a short time period.
This prevents the DLM lowering the target SNRM down to 3dB.

It is completely unrelated to Interleaving.

Quote
Why are Interleave depths set at 4/2?

That's how it should be. Usually 4 or 8 on the downstream with G.INP.
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gigio68

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Re: Problems With New Service (Provided by Origin)
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2019, 09:42:54 AM »

The line is capped at 60Mb (the 59,999 sync).

It gets capped from too many resyncs in a short time period.
This prevents the DLM lowering the target SNRM down to 3dB.

It is completely unrelated to Interleaving.

That's how it should be. Usually 4 or 8 on the downstream with G.INP.

Thanks for your input.

So now I should just wait and hope for the last jump to the max rate, as I was getting with Plusnet and as the DSLChecker from BT states my line is capable of (76Mbps). Is that correct?
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