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Author Topic: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027  (Read 2304 times)

c6em

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2019, 01:58:19 PM »

I'm just over 50 year's old and simply don't see the point of a landline,

Not wanting to pick a fight/argument - but when mobile reception in the UK is actually universal inside then I will agree with you as another mid 50's person.
As it is, at home my mobile will, when inside the house, usually ring if it is left on my bedside table where I won't hear it: so it is the open.
Whereas if it is with me in my back pocket for example inside the house then that is enough of a restriction to the signal getting though that it does not ring.  I do though get the text which tells me I've just missed a call and that there is a message on my voice mail. So if I really really do want to receive a call I have to carry it round in the house but not put in inside any jacket/trouser pocket but leave it out on a table next to me and not forget to pick it up each time.
Likewise I know that ringing a person in a nearby village from my landline to their mobile if they are at home is pointless as invariably the call will fail - use landline is the answer.
I'm not even in a modern steel and foil insulation house - just a 1930's one - those who do live in a modern square box say they have pretty well zero mobile reception inside.
This in rural southern UK and not half way up a welsh mountain were actually there is often good reception due to the number of masts in direct line of sight unlike a welsh valley where the villages are where there is in many cases no reception at all from any network.
If I am staying over in such places I will pick up your call to my mobile when I venture into a reception area - which might be days.
Motto as ever - use landline.
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Ronski

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2019, 08:20:46 PM »

7LM, Georges call would be logged as a missed call, he may also leave a message as Bowdon said, so your wife could then phone back at her convenience once she's aware. My wife often leaves her phone in the kitchen, if it rings or she gets a text and I hear it I'll take her phone to her, very rarely I will answer it if it's an family or extended family member as it may be an emergency but only if I'm unlikely to get the phone to her quick enough.

c6em, yes some very valid points there, its very easy to forget that not every one has excellent reception, we are very lucky that we have excellent reception at home on all networks. I deliberately keep the the wife's mobile on a different network to mine so if we are out and about and need to make an emergency call one of us is likely to have reception.
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Chrysalis

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2019, 10:29:25 PM »

I'm just over 50 year's old and simply don't see the point of a landline, I can take my mobile any where I go, where as with a land line it stays at home. My oldest daughter is at uni, everybody can still get hold of her on her mobile, my wife and other daughter also have their own mobiles, so we all have our own independent phones. Bowden is right, many youngsters would have grown up without or barely using a landline.

You said it in a nutshell, hence my feeling that for consumer use wireless is the future.  On aaisp my line is a broadband only line, no voice service.  My sister on VM has no phone line at all.  Most of my friends also dont bother with a landline, but they do for their business, as a fair few of my friends are business owners, they still have them on their business properties, but for personal use they all use mobile phones only.

At home, and also at all family and friend's houses I have great signal on phone.  But I know from sites like digitalspy, here and tbb that there is some people who get no signal in their home.  That is fixable with a mobile USO.  Some people may still need some kind of amplifier near window or something, but a USO should at least mean there is a signal to that point in every home.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 10:32:57 PM by Chrysalis »
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Postal

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2019, 12:27:51 AM »

. . . but a USO should at least mean there is a signal to that point in every home.

You mean like the USO that mandates BT to supply a fixed line service . . . . unless it would be too expensive to do so and the customer won't pay the excess costs (as per https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0021/34266/statement.pdf).
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2019, 01:02:58 AM »

Quick reality check.   This thread is about FTTP, and “copper switch off”, whatever that means.    The only party to benefit from copper switch off, if it means the demise of copper exchange lines, is BT, by the massively profitable expedient of rendering hundreds of exchanges redundant.

Comparison has been made to DTV switchover.   But that was a necessary evil, as the old analogue transmitters were causing interference with the planned digital transmitters. With such a “copper switch off” there is no such public benefit, legacy ADSL does not slow users of FTTP.

Copper switch off BT cost saving must simply not be allowed to happen imho, until it can be proven there will be no ‘losers’.  None at all, not even a fraction of a percent of population.   

On that, sorry, I am not negotiable.  Plain ridiculous, that people on these forums should even contemplate it.
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Ronski

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2019, 06:14:34 AM »

7LM, if they actually manage to cover every property with fttp then that could be used for voice even if not for broadband. Its a very big if though.
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2019, 07:20:39 AM »

Times and technology changes, copper (and silver copper  ;) ) as has been pointed out on this and other forums many times, is now outdated, ergo why would any business not capitalise on its demise ??

I've read in various forms of communique's, that the recovery of E-side cables will part fund the roll-out of FTTP and that bringing Exchanges 'together' to free up buildings has been looked at ... again, as a business model, why wouldn't you ??

As with the politics of today, it's an interesting time in the comms industry.  :)
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2019, 08:26:08 AM »

I’m not blaming BT, they have a legal responsibility to act in the best interests their shareholders (of which I am one).   Their shareholders (*99% of them) will no doubt be happy with an arrangement where there is a big cost saving *99% of the population have a boost up to FTTP, and the other 1% who (most of them) previously had some form of ADSL, or even FTTC, have that service taken away completely.

I really don’t think BT are nasty enough to want to do that.  In my career, I met folks from BT from time to time, they were decent people.   But if politicians, and the media, keep harping on about “copper switch off” as if it is a worthy goal, BT will probably have no choice but to buy into it.

*My 99%/1% balance, for those who’ll eventually have FTTP, is a figure I have made up for the sake of illustration.   If anybody can enlighten me as to a more accurate prediction, I’d be interested.   Bear in mind though, 1% is 600,000 people.
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Chrysalis

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2019, 04:01:55 PM »

7lm, the removal (and selling) of copper is a big part of the economics of rolling out FTTP.
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Postal

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2019, 05:55:42 PM »

. . . the other 1% who (most of them) previously had some form of ADSL, or even FTTC, have that service taken away completely.

Do we know how many of your putative 1% could actually be serviced through a 4G or future 5G mobile connection.  From the router onwards there is little practical difference to the end user experience and VoIP services will ensure that those who can benefit that way can still have a conventional style telephone in the corner of the living room.  After that how many could be serviced from a satellite connection?  Expensive, but would probably be subsidised as the costs for that small number would be far outweighed by the benefits of stripping out all of the copper.

I also seem to be rather more cynical than you; I have worked with some extremely nice people in business in my time, but if the edict from on high is that a course will be followed then I'm afraid niceness goes out of the window in favour of self-preservation.
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j0hn

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2019, 06:42:04 PM »

Quote
but if the edict from on high is that a course will be followed then I'm afraid niceness goes out of the window in favour of self-preservation.

What's the self preservation of OpenReach to rip up copper without a viable alternative.

Not everyone who will have had an OpenReach copper line and is suddenly told tough you need to use 2g/4g/5g (some 3g spectrum will likely be refarmed to 4g) will use EE.

BT Group may want to close rural exchanges to save money but they don't want any revenue generated to go to competitors.

Fixed line services will continue to play a huge part. Even for very rural customers.

Common sense dictates not every single rural home in the country will get full fibre but that doesn't mean they will all be thrown on mobile networks either.

I reckon the amount of properties that will be left with no fixed line when copper is shut off (NOT the PSTN shutdown) will be a relatively small number.
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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2019, 08:58:44 PM »

What's the self preservation of OpenReach to rip up copper without a viable alternative.

I was referring to the individual not the corporate body.  No matter how nice a guy you are when the boss says "do it" even if it goes against your sense of what is the correct thing to do, then most nice guys do it.  Not many tell the boss that it is wrong and that you can stick your job.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2019, 10:01:23 PM »

There were a number of occasions in my own career when I decided that what was best for a customer, and best for the company, differed from what a manager from higher up the food chain, was telling me to do.

I then contrived to do what was best for the customer and the company, whilst allowing said manager to believe he’d got his way, even though he hadn’t.   It’s a skill, and quite satisfying to do, just don’t expect any thanks for it.   ;D
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kitz

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2019, 10:31:38 PM »

The only party to benefit from copper switch off, if it means the demise of copper exchange lines, is BT, by the massively profitable expedient of rendering hundreds of exchanges redundant.

Just a reminder that BT sold off most of their exchanges long ago.  From memory the first lot was way back in 2001, then some more about 10 years ago..  and even more recently they even sold off some of their operating based buildings.
 
It has been a long term plan dating back years that recovery of copper would fund fibre.  There's even been problems with a couple of exchanges where they expected to be out long before now.  The leases which were negotiated at the time of sale have expired.. and the leaseholder has either refused to renew or held Openreach to ransom causing them to have to shift locations for a couple of quite large exchanges.

The original plans which date back to 2001 have been scuppered along the way - even the 21CN PTSN switch over which was due to go ahead in 2007/8 got dropped  possibly related to the fact they were in between time forced to open up the exchanges for LLU.   It's no big secret either that BT wanted to put more fibre in the field way back towards the end of the last century but that was also scuppered by the government at the time.   I sometimes wonder if we would have had a far more advanced network already if it wasn't for the likes of regulators and certain politicians.   Who knows, but it is what it is and technology continues to progress sooner or later.   

I do kind of get what you are saying though about the total switch off.   The really ironic thing is that whilst copper has become useless for broadband ironically it is on the whole extremely reliable for voice - more so than some of the alternatives - which is what it was invented for.   There is always the chance that for someone somewhere in a remote location where that string of copper could be a lifesaver. 

 
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Postal

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2019, 12:35:38 AM »

There were a number of occasions in my own career when I decided that what was best for a customer, and best for the company, differed from what a manager from higher up the food chain, was telling me to do.

I then contrived to do what was best for the customer and the company, whilst allowing said manager to believe he’d got his way, even though he hadn’t.   It’s a skill, and quite satisfying to do, just don’t expect any thanks for it.   ;D

Then you are not as cynical as I am and and are an outlier from the way that most "nice guys" behave.  Your reward will come in heaven but it won't stop the removal of copper if there is enough money at stake and there are enough senior people who have bonuses hanging on the result.
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