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Author Topic: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027  (Read 3547 times)

Postal

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2019, 11:39:46 AM »

We have a generation of people who have grown up using landline phones, I think as long as they are breathing the government wouldnt let their legacy services be turned off, its a kind of a generation thing.

It may be a generation thing but remember that until comparatively recently we had a generation of people many of whom grew up using analogue TV (some of whom were still using black-and-white technology).  The government of the day had no compunction about switching over everyone to digital TV requiring those who had not latched on to modern technology to replace their televisions or source a set-top box.  That was driven by the money the government was looking to bring in from the mobile phone companies for the spectrum released by the analogue TV signals.

There is not the same opportunity for the government to bring in revenue if the copper is removed so it will come down to how much pressure BT can put on the government to get sanction to remove the copper infrastructure and take the savings once fibre or other technology capable of bringing fast internet to all is rolled out.  The copper switch off will happen once the commercial pressures are stronger than the Luddite tendency.
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gt94sss2

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2019, 11:48:52 AM »

Are we sure we are mean the removal of copper nationally by 2027 and not the closure of the PTSN?
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Chrysalis

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2019, 11:57:52 AM »

It may be a generation thing but remember that until comparatively recently we had a generation of people many of whom grew up using analogue TV (some of whom were still using black-and-white technology).  The government of the day had no compunction about switching over everyone to digital TV requiring those who had not latched on to modern technology to replace their televisions or source a set-top box.  That was driven by the money the government was looking to bring in from the mobile phone companies for the spectrum released by the analogue TV signals.

There is not the same opportunity for the government to bring in revenue if the copper is removed so it will come down to how much pressure BT can put on the government to get sanction to remove the copper infrastructure and take the savings once fibre or other technology capable of bringing fast internet to all is rolled out.  The copper switch off will happen once the commercial pressures are stronger than the Luddite tendency.

I think the cost of moving the country to digital tv signals is far lower than covering the country with wired fibre, I think the government wont make users of copper lines use mobile phones instead, they would for fibre, but fibre wont be done everywhere by 2027 for financial and time reasons.   Upgrading air signals is far easier than upgrading wired signals.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2019, 12:10:32 PM »

Just to be clear, my reference to people who ‘need’ copper was more to do with internet access, not voice (though voice might matter too).

If there is a target cut-off date, and it is set in concrete, there is a risk that a few remaining households, that do not have yet access to fibre or cable, will be left with nothing at all or at best, feeble mobile data.    Politicians and the media will be able to celebrate that the cut-off date was met, whilst these souls are hung out to dry.

My argument is that the correct process is to set a target for 100% (not 99.9%) fibre coverage and only after that has been achieved, even if it is years overdue, should any subsequent target be set for ‘copper switch off’.
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Chrysalis

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2019, 02:46:52 PM »

I cant see us ever having 100% FTTP, what is probable is alternative techs will be used for certain areas such as 5G and community wifi broadband.
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2019, 07:14:44 PM »

Nice to see you posting, BS, it’s been a while. :)

My concern is not that BT are committing to target dates for fibre that goes further than FTTC, that is good.   My concern is that they are (allegedly) committing to target dates for copper switch-off.   That would not be so good if, come that date, people were still depending upon on it, no matter how few.

Copper switch-off should imho happen when (meaning ‘after’) it is no longer needed, rather than according to a target date.  I actually suspect BT will ‘do the right thing’ left to their own devices, but the media and politicians seem to be encouraging them to ‘do the wrong thing’ in pursuit of a gimmicky headline.

Thanks for the welcome back, 7LM .... now then, Dec 2025 is indeed the target date and work is well under way to meet that date. There are lots of considerations being worked on such as security alarm lines, health monitoring lines, ATM's, lift lines, traffic lights etc etc .... but as mooted VoB (Voice over Broadband) should be in play by Dec 2025.

Like anything in scope, this has been trialled (using a fibre city location) and with further trials going into 2020 it is expected 'x' amount of Exchanges to be switched off on a weekly basis from 2020-2025.

Of course, with anything as huge and involved as this .... issues may push the date back ....  :)
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dee.jay

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2019, 07:42:24 PM »

I'm really pleased, great news indeed.
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Chrysalis

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2019, 09:05:55 PM »

Interesting BS, thanks for the insight.

The turning off of exchanges gives a clear indication why they pushing FTTP now.
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kitz

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2019, 01:20:58 PM »

Thank you BS for the additional info :)
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j0hn

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2019, 03:26:38 PM »

Quote
Like anything in scope, this has been trialled (using a fibre city location) and with further trials going into 2020 it is expected 'x' amount of Exchanges to be switched off on a weekly basis from 2020-2025.

I'll start off by saying I'm in no way questioning what you've been briefed, but it's the opposite of what's been briefed to media/industry.

Would be interested to know how they are going to close exchanges before WLR/PSTN are switched off.

I've not seen anything to suggest exchange closures prior to 2025 and logistically don't see how that's even feasible with some still only having access to ADSL services.

Exchanges with LLU presence are unlikely to be closed prior to 2025 as they are still in consultation over how and when things will be done.

Exchanges with no LLU presence tend to be more rural and would need full FTTx coverage from a parent/handover exchange before xDSL services could be switch off.
Even then that only covers broadband and would leave everyone without a voice option.

Quote
but as mooted VoB (Voice over Broadband) should be in play by Dec 2025.

Which is the earliest I would expect exchange closures, for that very reason.

Happy to be informed otherwise but I can't see how they would do this without leaving people without services.

WLR stop sell isn't until 2023 with it being retired Dec 2025

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/wlrwithdrawal/wlrwithdrawal/downloads/Sept_2019_Newsletter_Issue_3.pdf

The Mildenhall exchange trial (the main VOIP trial exchange) doesn't end till Dec 2022.
Mildenhall isn't a Handover exchange.

Quote
Proposed Trial Timeline:
o Start voluntary migrations October 2019
o Notification of products stop sell January 2020
o SOTAP pilot start January 2021
o Products stop sell January 2021
o Orphaned asset migration start January 2022
o Withdrawal of stopped products in trial area 5 December 2022
o Trial closure 5 December 2022

Even on this trial exchange the stop sell will not be exchange wide but at an individual property level.

https://www.scribd.com/document/428870779/New-Openreach-Industry-Consultation-FTTP-Exchange-Upgrade-and-Single-Order-1

When OpenReach talk about the WLR/PSTN switch off they cite SOTAP as 1 of the alternatives.

Quote
6)   What are you going to do about voice only customers who don’t want broadband?

The introduction of the SOTAP product will ensure that end customers that cannot get fibre (coverage) can access an ADSL broadband service over which voice can be provided and a low speed fibre option is be considered for voice only customers. CPs that buy the Openreach MPF service and provide voice only services to end customers will not be impacted by WLR withdrawal.

That requires the copper exchange to stay where it is, until such a time there's full GEA coverage.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 04:07:40 PM by j0hn »
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dee.jay

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2019, 11:51:39 PM »

j0hn, out of curiosity - what do you do for a living?
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2019, 01:34:36 PM »

Hi j0hn

Not being briefed, specifically ... just what is available to read on our communal 'boards'.

I am certainly not the oracle on all things BTOR related, and always apply a caveat that things can and do change from initial plans.  :)
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j0hn

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2019, 01:05:02 AM »

In no way questioning you BS  :hat:

Just very interested in how it can be done, particularly without alternative landline services.

I'm all for it happening tomorrow if the alternatives are in place.
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j0hn

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2019, 01:13:26 AM »

j0hn, out of curiosity - what do you do for a living?

6 years in the telecoms industry, though not xDSL related in the slightest.
Last 10 years in the Events sector.

Career change coming shortly I think.
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT to Propose Full Fibre Move and Copper Switch Off by 2027
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2019, 09:58:54 AM »

In no way questioning you BS  :hat:

Just very interested in how it can be done, particularly without alternative landline services.

I'm all for it happening tomorrow if the alternatives are in place.

Ha ha ..... I didn't think for one minute you was j0hn.  :drink:

The problem with what I can see is they very rarely have a time/date stamp on them ... ergo the info could indeed be flawed somewhat ??. Alas, it's the best I can offer.  :blush:
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