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Author Topic: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads  (Read 2830 times)

sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2019, 09:34:42 AM »


Ronski, I was just trying to make the point that FTTC is exactly like FTTB in that they are both partial fibre.  Wasn’t commenting on VM, other than to respond (agreeably I thought) to your own comments

Of course, FTTC is crap compared with FTTB, and customers should be made aware of that fact. But if FTTB can call itself fibre, even though it stops short of customer premises, how we justify saying that FTTC isn’t fibre, just because it stops short of customer premises?     I’m all in favour of communicating the facts as to how great FTTB is, and crap FTTC is, but simply denying that it is fibre is a copout, because it is, just as FTTB is too.

My own preference would simply be to tell it like it is.      Make sure FTTC products describe themselves as are only FTTC,  allowing customers to easily recognise its inferiority.   Personally  I’d have no problems if ASA insisted on the words ‘crap fibre’ being included in adverts, but they can’t insist that the word ‘fibre’ is removed, unless same treatment is applied to FTTB.

For that matter, they should also make sure that FTTB products emphasise they are ‘only’ FTTB, allowing customers to research the possibility that a competing true FTTP service might be even better.   Not sure where VM fits into that argument, but it must fit somewhere.

I don’t agree that ADSL could be called fibre, that would be daft.  Leaving VM aside we are referring to the service we purchase from BT, which extends from our home to the telephone exchange.   What happens in the core network, or even the international network, is entirely irrelevant to the definition of the service we are discussing.   If the core network contains bits of ultra high speed ethernet, would we forbid FTTP from calling itself full fibre?   Of course we wouldn’t.
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johnson

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2019, 09:35:04 AM »

I wasn't going to comment in this thread again as its just flogging a dead horse.

But it feels relevant to bring up the conclusion of the last thread taking about this.

DSL is DSL. Doesn't matter where the DSLAM is, if the last part of the connection uses 2 unshielded copper wires and has a DSL modem at the end it is DSL. Every other country on the planet calls it what it is. They also call "hyrbid fibre coax" cable - DOCSIS. DSL is DSL, cable is cable. They have their own merits and short comings. No one calls fibre to the building or fibre to the premises cable or DSL because they are not.

I think this collective dumbing down of marketing started in the UK when anything that wasn't dial up was called "broadband" and it spiralled from there.
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Ronski

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2019, 09:52:30 AM »

7LM, FTTB is fibre, my point being that once its at the building it can be distributed via network cables, and the speed doesn't degrade.

By your own admission ADSL can't be described as fibre yet fibre is used until the exchange, the street side DSLAM is really no different to the exchange equipment with ADSL, after the street cabinet the broadband signal is distributed by phone lines that degrade the performance exactly the same as with ADSL.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2019, 10:15:53 AM »

Johnson’s argument is a good one, a point well made.    But by that argument, if we are to simply describe the technology of final delivery to premises, surely Hyperoptic’s FTTB would have to be described as ‘ethernet’ rather than fibre?

One problem that gives rise to is, there may other services available, that are delivered to premises via a final ethernet connection, that are actually just crappy old FTTC back to the exchange from the building’s comms cupboard. Or even crappier ADSL.   They’d also be able to call themselves ethernet services, just like Hyperoptic, which seems grossly misleading to me. :(
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Weaver

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2019, 10:31:46 AM »

> ‘ethernet’ rather than fibre

This is a very good point. Back in the old days of early engineer-installed Openreach FFTC, surely that was what you got in terms of demarcation of responsibility- the OR modem was the thing the black box that just delivered ‘internet’ somehow. It just happened to be by using wet string in the middle and had a nice seriously unreliable and slow bottleneck upstream of your ethernet demarcation point.
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Ronski

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2019, 10:37:46 AM »

7LM I think you need to think about all the links in the chain, we'll not include anything after the EU modem as that's irrelevant.

Without taking things to the extreme (IE distance for each link and considering speeds up to 1Gbps), is there any link in the chain which degrades performance of the connection?

Weavers cabinet is FTTC enabled, but clearly his 'fibre' line isn't working as he can't even get VDSL, just proves my point it's not fibre broadband.
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johnson

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2019, 10:41:56 AM »

One problem that gives rise to is, there may other services available, that are delivered to premises via a final ethernet connection, that are actually just crappy old FTTC back to the exchange from the building’s comms cupboard. Or even crappier ADSL.   They’d also be able to call themselves ethernet services, just like Hyperoptic, which seems grossly misleading to me. :(

Can you provide any examples of that happening? A single DSL link to a building that is shared by all occupants via ethernet/wifi? Other than a nasty HMO where there are worse things to worry about than the internet I cant believe there are flats that would share such a connection and not have their own phone lines where they could order a similar uncontested service directly.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2019, 11:04:52 AM »

7LM, FTTB is fibre, my point being that once its at the building it can be distributed via network cables, and the speed doesn't degrade.

Agreed, in purely technical terms, the signal doesn’t degrade (it might if UTP cables are over 100 metres, but that’s getting pedantic).   But the the service might degrade.   A shared ethernet network has additional elements - switches and hubs - that present additional bottlenecks.   I don’t know whether Hyperoptic have individual UTPs from their fibre modem direct to every premise, more likely I’d expect a few switches, perhaps on every floor of a block of flats.    It’s probably not that hard to shove 10Gbps through even the cheapest switch if the data is wrapped up in full size packets, but harder to use all the bandwidth with smaller packets.

Moreover, according to the Arstechica article, Hyperoptic’s ethernet is restricted to 1Gbps.   If that is true, then the ethernet itself may be a bottleneck, compared to the fibre.


All things considered I’d be delighted, even ecstatic, if somebody were to offer me an FTTB service delivered by 1Gbps ethernet.   But I’d still be a smidgen envious, if I discovered the flat next door had true FTTP.

Can you provide any examples of that happening? A single DSL link to a building that is shared by all occupants via ethernet/wifi? Other than a nasty HMO where there are worse things to worry about than the internet I cant believe there are flats that would share such a connection and not have their own phone lines where they could order a similar uncontested service directly.

No I can’t provide an example, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. 

Consider also a less extreme version, whereby a dodgy home developer (is there such a thing?) advertises that flats in his new-build have broadband via FTTB with a 10Gbps ethernet connection.  And indeed, when an occupier attaches his apparatus it to the wall socket, it would negotiate 10Gbps. But the underlying fibre might be only 1Gbps, as that’s the cheapest deal the dodgy developer could strike with a provider.   Still, the developer has told no lies...  He could even “justify” his deception by allowing neighbours to exchange data between one another at the full 10Gbps, even if that is hardly ever useful.
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johnson

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2019, 11:21:41 AM »

Consider also a less extreme version, whereby a dodgy home developer (is there such a thing?) advertises that flats in his new-build have broadband via FTTB with a 10Gbps ethernet connection.  And indeed, when an occupier attaches his apparatus it to the wall socket, it would negotiate 10Gbps. But the underlying fibre might be only 1Gbps, as that’s the cheapest deal the dodgy developer could strike with a provider.   Still, the developer has told no lies...  He could even “justify” his deception by allowing neighbours to exchange data between one another at the full 10Gbps, even if that is hardly ever useful.

You keep moving the goal posts man. First we were talking about a single FTTC or ADSL link and now its a shared gigabit one... seems pretty disingenuous.  :shrug:

As far as I understand a law was passed in recent years that all new builds must have FTTP, there is a new build estate not far from me and every house has a fibre box on the outside.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2019, 12:51:02 PM »

seems pretty disingenuous.  :shrug:

Apols if that’s how it came across (which clearly, it did).   :(
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johnson

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2019, 01:43:04 PM »

Apols if that’s how it came across (which clearly, it did).   :(

No worries, sure we are all arguing around the same point in the end.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2019, 06:38:31 PM »

I think using the argument that things like FTTB have a tiny bit of copper in the building must mean its the same as DSL is clutching at straws.

The technical difference between FTTP/FTTB and DSL is huge.  Even if a FTTP provider sells a 80/20 service, its still better, it wont need to switch to interleaving to maintain stability, it wont have a dynamic up to access/sync speed.  Its superior full stop.   It is a different technology full stop.

The ASA dug themselves a hole when they allowed the term fibre broadband to be used from day one, and they just dont want to be seen to take a U turn.

Its easy to think the UK is all that matters, and to ignore the standard elsewhere.  But all it shows to me is how silly we have got here, so much stuff gets "dumbed down", and it leads to "misselling" as essentially consumers dont understand what they buying.  Providers cannot educate consumers because the ASA wont let them.

Instead I noticed we shying behind the term "ultrafast broadband".  So the government can make people feel who get ultrafast via cable instead of via FTTP are not using inferior tech, and like wise who get it via g.fast.
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ejs

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2019, 08:48:21 PM »

How is the ASA not letting providers explain to their customers how FTTC works? They don't appear to have removed this explanation from Plusnet's website.

I thought Deutsche Telekom were looking at using G.fast with FTTB.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2019, 11:42:52 PM »

I thought Deutsche Telekom were looking at using G.fast with FTTB.

I wasn’t aware of that.  But a quick google suggests that G.fast with FTTB is seen as a sensible option, in Europe and elsewhere.   I can certainly understand the appeal.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Ireland Doing What the UK ASA Failed to do – BAN “Fake Fibre” Ads
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2019, 03:48:30 PM »

I have perhaps even got myself caught up in this confusion, I mean I see putting a dslam in a basement as rather silly, if you doing that then you may as well provide a proper fibre service.

But fair enough if someone is rolling out g.fast to the basement it is FTTB, so I should have said just FTTP/FTTH then.

But even so a FTTB variant of g.fast is a lot better than a FTTC variant of g.fast as the length of copper will be a tiny fraction, the performance would be much more predictable, and the fault diagnosis be more robust.  Our g.fast in the UK is cabinet based so I see it as FTTC.  If it was to the poles it would be FTTN, and to the basement then FTTB.
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