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Author Topic: Isle of Skye  (Read 3809 times)

burakkucat

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2019, 01:50:44 PM »

  ???  :swoon:  :sleep:
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Weaver

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2019, 09:58:25 PM »

Quite
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burakkucat

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2019, 10:57:17 PM »

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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2019, 07:42:15 PM »

Weaver’s amazing enthusiasm for Gaelic does remind me to warn Mike of one thing...

Many road direction signs in the Western Isles, and inner Islands like Skye too, are in Gaelic, or bi-lingual.  Can’t remember which is more common, or in which arreas.  Not a major problem, but worth being aware of it, these signs may always not tally with OS maps - or at least, not if you keep your maps as long as I do.   :D
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Weaver

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2019, 08:42:01 PM »

Signs in Skye and increasingly in the Highland Region, on the Mainland are ‘bilingual’ so-called. Of course they are nothing if the kind, it’s just that one form is a mangling of Gàidhlig into an anglicised form and the ‘green’ coloured form uses the spelling used by Gàidhlig speakers. There are exceptions where the two are completely different, such as Spean Bridge / ‘Drochaid an Aonachain’ and Dingwall / ‘Inbhir Pheofhairean’ in both cases the one is nothing to do with the other.
Bear in mind also that in the Hebrides a large number of signs are not Gàidhlig anyway as a very large proportion of the placenames in the Hebrides and Orkney+Shetland+Caithness are Norse which shows that Norse was the dominant language, at least among the important people, until it died out in favour of Gàidhlig (probably a bit like Norman French in England). My wife’s friend who is a native Icelander finds it difficult to make out the Norse names as the Gaeks mangled them so much and then now they are written in Gàidhlig spelling, this code that is indecipherable without your cut-out-n-keep regex engine handy.

In Scotland very many Welsh language placenames can be seen in some areas, even as far North as around Inverness and Orkney. As you may know Welsh was spoken up here before The Gàidhlig-speaking Irish invasion and the prestige of Christianity and then Gàidhlig-speaking royalty caused the Gàidhlig language to take over almost everywhere (apart from in Caithness and right down near Berwick although there are Gàidhlig rural names to be seen right next to Welsh and English to the SE of Edinburgh in the hills and on the coast.

All of the maps are improving quite a bit now so you shouldn’t have any trouble. It’s interesting to compare the situation with wales, where misspelling all the welsh place names, mangling them and showing such disrespect for the language would not be tolerated. (Apart from the continuing habit of running Welsh names together so that multiple words have no whitespace between them, and so too in mangled Gàidhlig.)
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2019, 10:08:00 PM »

@Weaver, of interest, is Gaelic your first language, as in first learned?
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tickmike

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2019, 10:16:34 PM »

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Re Full, we have a good knack of getting away from the crowds. :)

As I said earlier we are coming up on the Caledonian Sleeper (we hope) to Inverness, as there are lots of problems with the New stock sleeper trains, I emailed the CEO of Scot rail and he gave me the Bad news it will be the old Sleeper trains they be using,  as long as it is running.
I was looking forward to going on the new ones. :(


I am taking my Sat-Nav with me so hope that will still say the names in English of the towns / villages etc.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 03:06:36 PM by tickmike »
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2019, 10:30:52 PM »

I am taking my Sat-Nav with me so hope that will still say the names in English of the towns / villages etc.

I hope so.    :fingers:

But unlike (causing massive offence here) Wales, I find the Gaelic signs quite easy to pronounce, and hence to identify on maps.    Not sure what really changed since my 1980s expeditions.   Recollection is that OS maps, and signage, were all in English, but happy to stand corrected.

I’ve never learned a word of Gaelic myself, but had a few pals at University who spoke fluently.   They were justifiably proud of their heritage, but only too willing to speak English for social convenience.   Mind you, when expletives or insults were required, Gaelic might be used, just to keep me guessing...  ;D
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Weaver

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2019, 12:05:03 AM »

@7LM Nope, I’m an Englishman, born in Derby. I gave up my job in The West End and relocated to Skye to smo.uhi.ac.uk in 1998 in order to study Gàidhlig full time. (Everything taught entirely in Gàidhlig, no English allowed.) I had studied Gàidhlig for three years in the evenings after work at The City Lit Institute in Covent Garden. (And I was also studying Linguistics at the time as well.) I went to Ireland to study Old Irish, Continental Celtic and Celtic Historical Linguistics all too fleetingly so I was well hooked but didn’t have the money to continue academic studies.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 12:28:05 AM »

Derby is a fine city. ;)

One thing I find a little unusual is, when discussing on an English-speaking forum, you use the Gaelic spelling “Gàidhlig”.   I find that slightly disorientating.  It’s a bit like somebody saying to UK firiends (in English) “I speak Francais as well as English”, whereas most would say “...french as well as English”.   Is that habit common in Gaelic?

But the main thing is, if the Gaelic community has accepted you, credit to you.   I have every reason to think they are quite choosy about their friends. :)
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Weaver

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2019, 01:14:16 AM »

If you want some fun translating the placenames into English note this tool
    https://www2.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/faclair/sbg/m.php
    https://www2.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/faclair/sbg/lorg.php
SMO’s online Gàidhlig-English-Gàidhlig dictionaries. The first one is the mobile-phone minimal version, the second one the normal one. Note the word ‘beurla’ (a historical mistake for beul-ra it seems to me ‘mouth-saying’) historically meant ‘language’ and now means English so hit the [Gàidhlig] button first to look things up in the Gàidhlig-to-English direction.

Two requirements for using a dictionary app

1. With any Gàidhlig word when you are using a dictionary, if the second letter of the word is an h then drop the h eg chat -> cat. The dictionary apps are too stupid enough to do this for you.

2. If you see a prefixed letter t-or h- or n- just drop these, you don’t enter these into a dictionary (in very ancient times they were from the ending of the preceding word which got stuck onto the start of the following word instead. (Like English ‘an orange’, ‘an apron’ but in reverse)

[Gaelic spelling is easy for learners in compared to Welsh because you just always remove any h after the initial letter before dictionary lookup, and that’s all there is to it. In Welsh you are really stuffed because the initial consonant of words changes according to grammatical patterns and the Welsh writing system gives a phonetic rendering of the sound of the word, so it’s spelled how you say it, so for example cath gath chath  are all the same word, and some stupid welsh dictionary apps will only match against the base form. Poor welsh learners see the other word forms constantly and don’t know what the word is.]

The massive wonderful standard reference dictionary
    http://www.dwelly.info
is the ultimate and is online-searchable now too. A colossal achievement by an Englishman Edward Dwelly.

Wiktionary the stunning global multi language dictionary is approaching full coverage of Scottish Gàidhlig now and unlike the other dictionaries, wiktionary has not only every word but every word-form of every word too, so if you are unfamiliar with the grammatical forms then you won’t be able to find inflected word forms so will often be out of luck with the others and wiktionary is the one to turn to as it has more than just the base form of each word (eg English child child’s children children’s; man man’s men)

In many parts of Skye and in most of the Western Isles you’re out of luck anyway as the placenames are not Gàidhlig but Old Norse mangled by Gàidhlig speakers. Broadford for example is not English but a duff translation from the extremely similar sounding - because of their close genetic kinship - Norse phrase. The Gàidhlig name for this village is An t-Àth Leathann which is a translation into Gàidhlig of the Norse ‘the broad ford’ (but the Norse was I think fjord not ford iirc but memory fails me here, referring to the sea gap between the Mainland and the islands of Skye/Scalpaigh/Ràtharsair.

I have my own ideas about ‘Skye’ given that a very early recorded form was ‘Scētis’ or perhaps I should write Skētis which does seem to me to be connected with the Gàidhlig forms we have today leading me to prefer the spelling An t-Eilean Sgiathanach rather than ‘Sgitheanach’ and don’t get me started about the possible meaning, which is difficult. I absolutely must confirm the exact pronunciation with my neighbour, whether it is three or four (3.xx) syllables in exact  pronunciation. The t- is pronounced like an English j or ch in chill either will do in this instance or maybe something in between, and the whole thing is pronounced "earn tchill-ann ‘SKEE-ann-och" where the last ch is like ‘loch’ ‘Bach’ and the first small word (a proclitic) is the definite article "an t-" and its vowel is a schwa like the vowel in the unstressed final syllable of ‘butter’, ‘mother’, or the first syllable of ‘another’ when it is weakly pronounced.
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Weaver

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2019, 02:27:45 AM »

> speak Francais as well as English

@7LM you are absolutely 100% correct in this of course. And your example is spot on. The only reason I chose to do so here, incorrectly I think, well two reasons: (i) is to clarify for a readership outside Scotland that there are three Gaelic languages and I have to write ‘Scottish Gaelic’ to be correct and distinguish it from Irish and Manx. (ii) the other thing is that in Scotland, English speakers who have no Gaelic at all themselves do not in my experience use the word ‘Gaelic’ when referring to the language itself but rather everyone here nowadays says ‘Gàidhlig’, that is they use the same phonetic form of a word that Gàidhlig speakers themselves do. The Gaelic word itself has been borrowed phonetically by Scottish English speakers. In Scotland English speakers frequently do write ‘Gaelic’ though. So very surprisingly, your example of what we would not expect because it is incorrect - ‘I speak Français’ - is in fact exactly what we do find. When I first came to Scotland I found this very confusing and was completely unaware of it, not being able to get Scottish flavours of TV down south in England. (Mind you, radio is better, when driving south in the M6 I can hang on to BBC Radio nan Gàidheal in the far until we get to - where is it, Shap Fell, gone blank, the highest point on the M6? I think it’s important for a number of reasons to get ScG and Welsh language programming all over Britain

So I should stop doing the wrong thing and stop trying to give the helpful heads-up and rather write Scottish Gaelic [ScG] instead.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2019, 08:25:32 AM »

Absolutely no change requested from me, carry on as you were, all fascinating.  I’m afraid I personally speak no other languages whatsoever, and seem to have no aptitude for learning them.  Unless of course, it is a programming language. 

In fact I recently had a short holiday in France.   I find I can recall a few “useful” phrases from school o level (I failed my French higher) but it is rather pointless to do so, as I am completely incapable of understanding the responses.   I suspect the responses may actually be off-topic to what I expect, because I probably actually said something quite different to what I thought I’d said.

Thankfully, many French folks do speak pretty good English, I just feel it is polite to make an effort to speak French, however pathetic I might be.
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tickmike

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2019, 01:57:18 PM »

Derby is a fine city. ;)
It used to be, more like a concrete jungle now.  :o
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Weaver

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Re: Isle of Skye
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 04:30:01 PM »

In the Hebrides, Gaels in the past used to be simply dumbstruck by encountering any learner speaking Gaelic to them, with a look of not exactly horror but total astonishment. That happened in the island shop in Beàrnaraigh na Hearadh for example. In Skye, in the pub at Eilean Iarmain, I was talking to a very local elderly lady in Gaelic and the conversation came round to asking me where I was from, the absolutely most vital and essential question in any Gaelic conversation between strangers. I replied, in Gaelic again, that I was an Englishman, from Derbyshire. At that point she told me I was a liar and that I was obviously from the Isle of Lewis. I assured her that that was not so. She said ‘I’m not speaking to you any mire’ and turned her back on me. Dumbfounded, I retired to lick my wounds and contemplate the meaning of it all. Apologies most sincerely if I have told you this tale before.

Presumably I was supposed to be ‘from the Isle of Lewis’ because my Gàidhlig was so horrible, either that or because all my long-term teachers bar one were from Lewis, although I have tried very very hard not to pick up any of their extremely distinctive traits and divergent pronunciation, giving that I live in Skye not Lewis. Anyway it’s both a terrible insult and a backhanded compliment.

If you are an English speaker in England then you will have header foreigners trying to speak English, will have heard incorrect pronunciation and foreign accents and might well be able to identify some well known particular foreign accents. But Gaels, until recently, had never heard any foreigner speaking their language and had never heard of such a think actually happening. In the case of the island shop, the astonishment was because I was breaking the rules. No one ever speaks Gaelic to someone that they do not know, because the assumption is that that person will not understand the language and that would inconvenience and embarrass the other party. In the past it would be humiliating to reveal your lack of English competence by failing to speak in English. The shame is part of this particular contact situation right next door to the most powerful prestigious language in the world. All Gaels went out of the way to not let their children converse in Gàidhlig at home and the loss has been particularly massive in the last two generations, from my experience. WWII made things far far worse too.

That’s why the language will be extinct within a very few years. I came in rather late, not at the eleventh hour but some time after that. There are still a very large number of native speakers in Skye even though around the bridge, with certain exceptions, there does seem to be a bit of a black spot and in that region there is a surprising number of (literally) foreign immigrants, not just from England either. I can think of a dozen European countries in fact. In Sléibhte, the large peninsula to the south of where I live, in the region surrounding SMO, the native speakers are mostly ‘foreigners’ as the language has declined badly and the replacements have been attracted to the area by employment at SMO. This means that locals will be very used to hearing alien dialects, but that’s true in any event because of the BBC Radio. But they will also be used to hearing the terrible Gaelic of the students.

[Moderator edited to fix the typo in the closing url tag.]
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 06:27:58 PM by burakkucat »
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