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Author Topic: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability  (Read 609 times)

dee.jay

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https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2019/06/openreach-uk-trial-g-inp-tweak-to-raise-fttc-broadband-stability.html

Quote
Openreach (BT) has announced plans to trial higher levels of ReTransmission (ReTx / G.INP) technology on their Fibre-to-the-Cabinet (FTTC) based “superfast broadband” capable ISP lines, which they believe could slightly improve service speed and help stability.

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ktz392837

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Re: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2019, 02:31:59 PM »

I usually like ISPReview news articles but as this one gives the impression that ECI has working G.INP instead of highlighting a large proportion of lines that have to suffer an ECI cabinet still don't even have basic G.INP it is not one of their best articles it is like it has been cobbled together and half of it is missing - bordering misleading or even just wrong.

If they are announcing the possibility of G.INP on ECI again great but whatever they are saying I do not believe there are any significant ECI based lines running G.INP if any.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 02:39:33 PM by ktz392837 »
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kitz

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Re: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2019, 11:30:50 AM »

I agree that in some respects the article could lead people to perhaps misunderstand what it really means by mentioning increase in service speed...  and the 1st paragraph where ECI is mentioned is also misleading as G.INP on ECI cabs is practically nil. So that is approx 1/3rd of UK lines still without G.INP.  :'(

Quote from: ISPreview
(upstream ReTx has in the past been quite challenging to get working across their whole network but they have since solved some of those issues).
Erm.... none of those issues have been resolved and its why ECI lines don't have any retransmission at all.   :(

What does cross my mind is what about those modems which are incapable of upstream re-tx.    There are still likely quite a few ECI modems out in the wild.   
I know when my daughter moved, the engineer installed an ECI modem during the period they were waiting for g.fast to be enabled.     As there has not been any further f/w updates to the ECI modems, does that mean those lines could go back to losing up to 10Mbps of their downstream sync?    Or perhaps they think that now the HomeHubs have been 'fixed' and that because the ECI's don't provide line stats, then no-one will notice.

Quote from: Openreach
This briefing is to inform all CPs about a trial Openreach will be testing the effect of higher levels of Retransmission ("ReTx") on the VDSL network

To me that would imply adding another re-tx profile by increasing the amount of impulse noise protection on any retransmitted data (DTU's).    The benefit could be less (Huawei based lines) having traditional forms of error correction such as Interleave and RS encoding.  Things may look good as far as stats go ie more people may see an increased sync speed, but it is highly likely to affect the throughput speed.  It could also turn out that traditional interleave is preferable on some lines, as depending upon the type of noise, a higher level of  G.INP could induce more jitter.

I wonder what the impact on the upstream throughput will be if all lines are to now have G.INP applied by default.  Whilst there may be some coding gain, the actual overheads could be slightly more.  Admittedly it's likely to be minute and I doubt the general public would notice if their sync is still showing as 20Mbps.

The main thing is that this is a trial..  no doubt so that Openreach can assess some of those points and observe what difference it does make in the wild, before rolling it out fully.
 
 
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ejs

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Re: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2019, 06:40:27 PM »

The latest edition of BT SIN 498 made supporting upstream retransmission a mandatory requirement for a modem. So nobody should be using a modem that doesn't support upstream retransmission.

INPMIN_SHINE_RTX only goes up to 63 according to G.998.4, so I doubt that the INP level can go much higher than what it already is.
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kitz

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Re: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2019, 07:38:26 PM »

Quote
So nobody should be using a modem that doesn't support upstream retransmission.

What about the ECI modems still in use? 
Bearing in mind my daughter was given an ECI modem by Openreach within the past 2 years despite being on a Huawei cab.   Granted they are now on g.fast, but if it wasnt for the fact they are...  (nor the fact that I gave them a TPlink)..  then that ECI could well have still been in use.    There is a large portion of people who never bother changing modems - particularly the older generation.    As long as it works then they don't care. :/
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ejs

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Re: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2019, 08:13:51 PM »

What about the ECI modems still in use?

They can be replaced since no-one is going to be updating their firmware. I got the impression that the main reason ECI cabinets don't have G.INP was due to a specific problem with Lantiq modems. Which seems complete madness since the modems should be easier to update or replace than what is in the cabinets.

Quote
As long as it works then they don't care.

The point is the modems don't work, not properly. As long as they don't notice how it doesn't work properly then they don't care.
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j0hn

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Re: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2019, 08:41:26 PM »

OpenReach are able to exclude the Asus modems with Mediatek chipsets from getting downstream G.INP.
It's possible they can now be selective on what modems will get upstream G.INP?

I'd be surprised if they went down the "turn it on and who cares about non compliant modems" route.

If they worked like that we would already have G.INP on ECI cabinets.
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kitz

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Re: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2019, 09:04:44 AM »

They can be replaced since no-one is going to be updating their firmware.


Which is total nuts that Openreach were still supplying ECI modems with Huawei cabs 18m ago.  As I said above there is no further f/w update available.  They should have ditched the ECI modems long ago as soon as it became obvious that they don't do upstream g.inp   >:(

Quote
I got the impression that the main reason ECI cabinets don't have G.INP was due to a specific problem with Lantiq modems. Which seems complete madness since the modems should be easier to update or replace than what is in the cabinets.

Totally agree

Quote
The point is the modems don't work, not properly. As long as they don't notice how it doesn't work properly then they don't care.

I concur with the additional italicised sentence as it's what I actually meant.   
I have a couple of elderlies whose accounts I keep an eye on for them who both have the old PN TG582Ns.    I've even offered to give one of them one of my spare Zyxels, but because as far they are concerned everything works, then they really are not bothered.   They don't care as long as they can do what they need and would never even think to do a speed test.   It either works or it doesn't :/
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gt94sss2

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Re: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2019, 01:10:30 PM »

Which is total nuts that Openreach were still supplying ECI modems with Huawei cabs 18m ago.  As I said above there is no further f/w update available.  They should have ditched the ECI modems long ago as soon as it became obvious that they don't do upstream g.inp   >:(

Yes, am surprised your daughter got an modem from OR at all frankly.

OR stopped supplying new FTTC modems on installs in early 2016 and replacements in Jan 2017. Of course, they had been trying to stop providing modems since 2014 but some ISPs (incing A&A) initially objected.

As you say, they also formally stopped providing firmware updates in Sep 2018 but there hadn't been one for years anyway..
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kitz

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Re: Openreach UK Trial G.INP Tweak to Raise FTTC Broadband Stability
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2019, 08:25:31 AM »

afaik it was a new install after a house move.  They had been waiting for g.fast and were without any telephony or dsl for several weeks.   
I can absolutely guarantee you that they ended up with an ECI modem which is why I gave them my VR900.   No idea what they'd done with the previous TD9970 I'd given them, presumably left it in the old house or got lost during the move.   I was surprised as you to see an ECI in there.

I have very little to do with what's going on with this connection. In the previous house everything was in my daughters name and through Plusnet which she mostly got me to sort.   Since they moved the connection is in her partners name and he has dealt with everything... and I try not to stick my nose in - plus not being nearby any more makes it very difficult for me to just pop round.    Although saying that I believe she did 'pull rank' a few weeks ago when she was totally fed up with the g.fast connection and lack of connectivity and she decided to speak to Zen rather than leave it to her partner to sort. 
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