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Author Topic: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.  (Read 1169 times)

jelv

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2019, 06:41:35 PM »

We should stress that a "fibre" connection means absolutely no loss of speed if  you are further away from the exchange and then force ISPs to admit to people that the reason they are not getting full speed is because it is not a pure fibre connection.
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re0

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2019, 06:59:32 PM »

I wince whenever someone is under the impression that their "superfast fibre" FTTC (fibre-copper hybrid) connection is full fibre. Unfortunately, trying to explain otherwise may just create an argument so I have to make the calculated decision whether to correct them or let them live blissfully in a lie.

I am quite happy to, and I'd would rather call DSL "DSL", coaxial cable "cable", etc. It seems all of this marketing stuff happened before I really started paying attention (was only a young lad back then) but even with all the influence of advertising I haven't adopted such terms for primary use - unless I am speaking to someone who only understands the technology as only being certain terms as drilled into them by advertisements or training, such as 1st line support agents, sales, and people who are not "techies".
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licquorice

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2019, 07:34:39 PM »

Absolutely crazy. So is VDSL delivered from a cabinet in the exchange grounds to serve ex EO lines any more 'Fibre' broadband than the ADSL delivered from within the building?

As I have said before, taken to the ultimate limit, dial up internet can be considered Fibre by the ASA's reckoning as there will be fibre somewhere in the path.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 07:37:17 PM by licquorice »
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Chrysalis

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2019, 07:57:09 PM »

Be careful what you wish for.    Look at how speeds are now advertised as “averages”.   So despite the fact that I want, and achieve, something around 28/8, I have to buy a product that advertises itself as 35/6. :-X

“Fibre” is not at all misleading in FTTC.   The product I currently use is FTTC, the ‘F’ of which stands for ‘Fibre’.  Whilst I of course understand the differences between the various FTTx acronyms,  when in conversation with my non-techie neighbour who is still on ADSL, and who would quickly become bored if I were to explain every ‘x’ in all the FTTx variants, I would simply describe my own service as “Fibre broadband”.   There is a fundamental difference between his technology and mine, and that difference is the presence of Fibre in the product I pay for.

Averages are better than what was before it.

If someone asks me what my broadband is I say its DSL.  If I am asked for specifics then its VDSL from the cabinet.

The ASA has U turned before on unlimited usage, what made them do that in my view was a policy shift from BT away from traffic management, they dont seem to like going against the market trend, thats their issue in my opinion.  Ofcom (who enforce ASA decisions since ASA itself has no power), in their remit somewhere is a bit about not making decisions that causes excessive financial harm to whom it regulates which is a pretty big noose to put around a neck.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 08:10:21 PM by Chrysalis »
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2019, 08:15:09 PM »

I don’t want averages.   I know, from observation of its behaviour, that my line is capable of 28/8.

With the ASA/Ofcom conformant gibberish that ISPs must reiterate, Zen are only allowed to quote 35/6.   It is impossible for me to know, from that description, whether I will still be able to achieve the 8Mbps upload of which my line is capable. :(

One more comment on the ASA fibre debate.    VDSL is a purely copper technology.   It does not require Fibre, and does equate to FTTC.    Which leads me to a Question... 

...in those other countries where FTTC is implemented and, it seems, they are not allowed to use the word “Fibre” to describe it, what alternative terms do they use to encourage consumer understanding and uptake, and to differentiate it from “all copper”?
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Chrysalis

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2019, 08:35:33 PM »

I have seen the term VDSL been used.  I dont know if its used everywhere tho.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2019, 09:16:24 PM »

I have seen the term VDSL been used.  I dont know if its used everywhere tho.

Then, and you probably know I am going to say this, that is just plain wrong as it does not adequately describe the technology, and does not distinguish my own FTTC option from my neighbour’s all-copper service.    Trying to be constructive, maybe we should be campaigning for inclusion of a  term such as “hybrid fibre”?   

Trouble with that is, these days, the great uneducated public may just  equate “hybrid” with “best of all worlds”, which would not be the right message.
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licquorice

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2019, 09:28:02 PM »

In a parallel universe it would be 'Fibre Broadband' and 'Broadband'. Only this universe could call a service delivered by copper, fibre!
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Chrysalis

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2019, 09:32:05 PM »

Then, and you probably know I am going to say this, that is just plain wrong as it does not adequately describe the technology, and does not distinguish my own FTTC option from my neighbour’s all-copper service.    Trying to be constructive, maybe we should be campaigning for inclusion of a  term such as “hybrid fibre”?   

Trouble with that is, these days, the great uneducated public may just  equate “hybrid” with “best of all worlds”, which would not be the right message.


It would be ADSL Broadband vs VDSL broadband vs cable broadband vs fibre broadband.

Instead its broadband vs fibre broadband.

You saying in a corrected market you wouldn't know the difference between VDSL and ADSL?
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licquorice

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2019, 09:36:22 PM »

The problem is differentiating speed of the service and medium of delivery, ideally they need to be defined separately. BT's Ultrafast service in particular can be delivered either via G.Fast and copper or FTTP.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2019, 09:53:54 PM »

The problem is differentiating speed of the service and medium of delivery, ideally they need to be defined separately. BT's Ultrafast service in particular can be delivered either via G.Fast and copper or FTTP.

Very true.   For me, the appeal of FTTP lies mainly in the speed, rather than the medium. 

If 1Gbps could be delivered over a stick of wet celery, genetically engineered to repel rabbit gnawing,  I’d be probably be happy with that too.  :)
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licquorice

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2019, 10:03:43 PM »

For me (and I suspect many other rural users) the appeal of FTTP would be the reliability of fibre rather than the fragility of a copper/aluminium infrastructure which is subject to the vagaries of the weather.
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Weaver

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2019, 10:05:05 PM »

But the difference between diesel and petrol isn’t even the same, because one fuel is not a million times better. It would be like comparing diesel with rocket fuel or einsteinium or perhaps antimatter or small black holes. (Not that I’m disagreeing with Kitz of course.)

And of course, it really really matters if people get diesel and petrol confused. I know someone who made that mistake accidentally and iirc luckily realised before turning the engine on. Wisely left the car turned off and got some help so didn’t wreck the entire system.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2019, 10:23:40 PM »

For me (and I suspect many other rural users) the appeal of FTTP would be the reliability of fibre rather than the fragility of a copper/aluminium infrastructure which is subject to the vagaries of the weather.

More seriously, I’m a rural user too.  And one of the reasons, if speeds were the same,  I prefer copper over fibre or celery is line power for phones.   Out here, power cuts are pretty regular, rarely a few months go by without the lights going out.

Wrt petrol/deisel, I think a better comparison is electric vs petrol-electric hybrid.  We hear a lot of hype, from government and from car makers, about “all cars being electric” by some target date.   But when you read the details, nearly always they mean hybrid, rather than all-electric.   Personally I have no problem as if you read these statements carefully and literally, it is clear what they are saying (which usually is very little).   But I don’t doubt, in 20 years time, having been too lazy to actually read the detail and egged on my the media, people will claim they were deceived.
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Ronski

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Re: High Court rules in favour of ASA for use of fibre in advertising.
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2019, 10:45:13 PM »

I have a UPS for a reason, and whenever the powers gone off our internet has always stayed on even when we had VDSL, and as for a landline we haven't had one for a year now.
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