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Author Topic: ADSL fault..  (Read 803 times)

dslcrazy

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ADSL fault..
« on: March 21, 2019, 04:20:03 PM »

Hi,

I've had an ongoing fault for about a month with my adsl provider, maybe more. Had openreach out a few times so far and no testing they've done has found a specific problem.

Intermittent noise on the phone and resyncs daily within 24 hours and often sooner after connecting, At one time the faceplate blew during my ISP testing my phoneline.

Last engineer who came out actually made some improvements to wiring in the cabinet and this did improve the phone noise for me but the problem is still present. I am not sure if there is noise on the QLT at the moment as most of it seems to have cleared up, and I haven't heard it in a couple of days now despite hearing it after the engineer visit.

He said the most likely scenario is an HR fault but he wasn't able to find anything during testing.

Interestingly I setup a technicolor tg582n that I bought purely for testing purposes.. and the line seems to hold above 24 hours for a change. I haven't fully tested it yet for 48 hours but I think it's a bit better. Compared to two routers that fail to reach 24 hours, now sometimes dropping sooner than a day. Any chance my fault cleared but the routers were somehow damaged by the fault? Or maybe it's this particular broadcom router doing better due to the broadcom chip?

Different line profiles have been tried but none have fixed the problem, only increased the uptime a little bit. Before the engineer visit I seemed to notice more problems when it was raining, and I was convinced it was the main cause of the issue but that dissapeared after the cabinet wiring changes too.

Router stats show SNR drops on my ISP issue modem which is a slightly newer broadcom. Technicolor shows no serious downstream SNR drops, only by 0.5. There were some spikes in CRCs and ES at times when monitoring with DSLstats on the technicolor.

I don't have a full days worth of graphs yet as I managed to lose the stats, and have another engineer visit tomorrow so that would have to wait until after.

One of my modems indicate a high burst of CRC errors (maybe 500) and some ES on the 15 minute counter whenever I notice a drop.

As far as noise interference inside the house goes, I've done my best to eliminate that and switching off and on devices to see if anything happens, changed some lightbulbs around, using different surge protected extension lead now etc. No definite pattern to the drops that I can tell.

Any feedback? Many thanks :)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 08:18:24 PM by dslcrazy »
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2019, 05:29:21 PM »

Welcome to the Kitz forum.  :)

I think it might be best if you describe how the telephone line reaches your home and the sockets/wiring therein.

Do you have an aerial or an underground feed from the distribution point? Is there a junction box on an exterior wall? How does the cable enter your home? Through a hole in the wall? A door-frame? A window-frame?

How many sockets? What do they look like? Are they connected in series (i.e. like a daisy-chain)? Or from a central point (i.e. star-like)?

What form of filtering is used? A centralised filter (i.e. a service specific face plate (SSFP))? Or distributed micro-filters, one per socket?

I've probably forgotten to ask for other details but you can probably sense that any attempt at a remote diagnosis requires full knowledge of the existing infrastructure.
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dslcrazy

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2019, 06:41:42 PM »

Welcome to the Kitz forum.  :)

I think it might be best if you describe how the telephone line reaches your home and the sockets/wiring therein.


Thanks for the welcome and the reply.

As far as cabling entering the property, I'm in a first floor upstairs flat where there is a junction box outside my window a couple of feet below it. From that box a cable rises from it and goes round to the outer wall and then into my property through the wall connecting to an NTE5c masterbox. Estimated 6-8 foot of what looks like black cat5e drop wire. Everythings looks OK there.

The cable on the other side of the junction box appears to run about 30 feet max along the building then the same wire type runs down into the soil of a flowerbed near the wall (nobody uses the flowerbed so I'm sure it's not damaged) where there's a nearby BT manhole cover. This runs in a straight line and there are a few smaller junction boxes along the way. The BT cabling does however run round the whole building but I look to have just 3 neighbors before me with little junction boxes inbetween.

Large square gray boxes with oval shaped covers just have cables running out the top and the bottom, like the one near my window, which seems to be used partly to get cables to the upper floor. The ones along the run between myself and the neighbors I would describe as a smaller star junction. No additional junctions between my NTE and the grey junction box outside my window.

My local cabinet is just over the main road by 35 feet max from my window on the left, but the external drop cabling runs 30 feet to the right as I said so it must go back on itself. Maybe 80 feet from the cabinet then? There are no overhead wires, all underground or on the side of the building as mentioned.

I don't have any extensions, various cables were tried, adsl filters swapped, currently just sitting in the test socket with a new ADSL dangle filter and cable that came with the technicolor router (also tested new cable/filter with other routers with no difference). Faceplates.. well, I have two openreach VDSL filtered faceplates since BT gave me a new one to replace the flat one, so aside from the flat one that's blown the faceplates appear to be fine.

The adsl and phone are BT wholesale.

1.3 Kilometers from the exchange according to one of the engineers.
down attention: 31.0
up attenuation: 16.3
Down SNR: 6 (9 doesn't help).
Up SNR: 5.4

I've probably forgotten to ask for other details but you can probably sense that any attempt at a remote diagnosis requires full knowledge of the existing infrastructure.

Yeah I get ya, I just didn't think to mention the cabling.

Last engineer did a pair quality test though and it didn't turn anything up. He was pretty thorough checking for adsl and phoneline faults too. So perhaps cabling is OK, even if obviously not perfect for me.

There is a slightly sinking BT manhole near the curb where a puddlesometimes forms. Engineer basically said it would drain off in guttering if it gets inside, and they'll often find joints are dry regardless of any problems with water getting in. Of course things are drying up now so I'm sure it wouldn't be as bad now and no more drops when it rains. Any thoughts on that?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 08:19:51 PM by dslcrazy »
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dslcrazy

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2019, 07:45:35 PM »

Aside from that.. possible sources of interference are storage heaters inside the flats (just inside the outside wall so they're near the line running that way) but my own are fine afaict, communal lighting maybe since the flurescent tubes buzz a bit but they're not near my own external wiring really.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 08:20:21 PM by dslcrazy »
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2019, 08:22:57 PM »

Thank you for the description . . . and details of the tests that were performed.

I think we can rule out any obvious external wiring problems and internally you have the absolute minimum required . . . the incoming service feed going directly to an NTE5C (fitted with a SSFP).

Nothing comes immediately to mind. Let's see if anyone else has an idea.  :-\
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dslcrazy

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2019, 08:35:13 PM »

Thank you for the description . . . and details of the tests that were performed.

I think we can rule out any obvious external wiring problems and internally you have the absolute minimum required . . . the incoming service feed going directly to an NTE5C (fitted with a SSFP).

Nothing comes immediately to mind. Let's see if anyone else has an idea.  :-\

I don't know much about telecoms so I can only think of something random happening with the modems, if one modem holds much longer than two others. But I guess I'll see soon enough in a few days with the new one plugged in, and remove any doubt.

Nearly 5 and a half hours of stats:

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote):   -
Error Seconds (Local/Remote):   1,030 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down):   0 / 0
CRC Errors (Up/Down):   309 / 4,225
HEC Errors (Up/Down):   301 / 4,793


The only other thing I can think of is my neighbour having an issue with his wifi. From his descriptions sounds like just his wireless devices are really painful to watch and just won't work most of the time between 8AM to 10PM specifically. Apparently everything wired is fine though. But he's not savvy so wouldn't notice a resync at all. Could just be a wireless channel issue, but I wonder if there might be some EFI/RFI somewhere.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 09:19:37 PM by dslcrazy »
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Weaver

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2019, 10:58:02 PM »

There should not be any audible noise when you listen to a conventional wired (not DECT or  cordless handset) phone and if so, then thatís an issue for your phone service provider not your ISP, unless the two are the same one company. Itís down to who you pay your line rental and landline phone bill to.

Given that youíre hearing noise that has to be fixed first. No need to be thinking about Wi-Fi at all, first things first.

And BT should not be blowing faceplates up. [!] ???

Did you say you have out a telephone straight into the test socket?

Youíve had three engineers which is a bit mad. If it continues and you find are getting nowhere, the ISP Andrews and Arnold aa.net.uk (whom I use) will fix your line.
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ejs

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2019, 06:01:38 PM »

Three engineer visits is nothing if you follow what goes on on the Plusnet forums.
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dslcrazy

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2019, 07:13:30 PM »

There should not be any audible noise when you listen to a conventional wired (not DECT or  cordless handset) phone and if so, then thatís an issue for your phone service provider not your ISP, unless the two are the same one company. Itís down to who you pay your line rental and landline phone bill to.

Given that youíre hearing noise that has to be fixed first. No need to be thinking about Wi-Fi at all, first things first.

And BT should not be blowing faceplates up. [!] ???

Did you say you have out a telephone straight into the test socket?

Youíve had three engineers which is a bit mad. If it continues and you find are getting nowhere, the ISP Andrews and Arnold aa.net.uk (whom I use) will fix your line.

Engineer was a no show today, tomorrow they're sending another. Still in my contract, and fault is escalated at this point to OR Team Leader. Switching might just mean going back to the very start so for now going to persist with it. If it gets bad enough and BT mess me around I'll certainly consider it.

Actually I want them to fix the fault first then I'm going to walk and find a TTB line like aaisp offer but all of their packages are too expensive so something 'similar' is what I'd go for. I want to be as far away from BTW  infrastructure as possible as I've had three faulty lines in this area all at different exchanges, and LLU is as close as I can get to that in this particular property.

Yes from the test socket. I heard a little something on a QLT just now but this is close to symptomless at the moment. Perhaps I was right about the weather doing it and the difference now is the weather is clearing up but the broadband fault remains. The appointment tomorrow is apparently with a senior SFI engineer so I'll see what they do, hopefully physical changes to the line.

When I say blew the faceplate blew I mean fried/damaged, no black marks or signs of burning or anything.

Of course only mentioning the wifi and possible interference to cover everything, not that I think it's the problem really.. more of a last ditch possibility.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 08:49:05 PM by dslcrazy »
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Weaver

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2019, 04:25:06 AM »

Remember LLU is not relevant to someone using VDSL2/FTTC. In the case of FTTC, there is the same old copper line to your house, itís just shorter and terminates in a green cabinet in which there is a modem. You cannot buy LLU if you are using FTTC/VDSL2.

You mentioned a cabinet, but on the other hand using the older ADSL2 would mean that the other modem that you talk to is in the exchange (called a ĎDSLAMí or newer ĎMSANí), not in the roadside green cabinet. Some of these large green boxes have modems in them and some donít.

In the case of LLU you would have to be using ADSL2 and some other service provider/wholesale carrierís hardware would be parked in the exchange and your copper line would be connected to that. Also the link from the exchange heading away, ultimately towards the internet, might very well be run by a non-BTW wholesale carrier such as TalkTalk. So thatís two differences. But it would still be the same crappy old copper line from your house to the exchange in the case if ADSL2, with or without LLU. And maintenance would still be done by the exact same Openreach guys if LLU. LLU doesnít mean that you get a different phone line to your house.

Sincere apologies if you knew all if that already.
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dslcrazy

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2019, 07:56:31 AM »

Remember LLU is not relevant to someone using VDSL2/FTTC. In the case of FTTC, there is the same old copper line to your house, itís just shorter and terminates in a green cabinet in which there is a modem. You cannot buy LLU if you are using FTTC/VDSL2.

You mentioned a cabinet, but on the other hand using the older ADSL2 would mean that the other modem that you talk to is in the exchange (called a ĎDSLAMí or newer ĎMSANí), not in the roadside green cabinet. Some of these large green boxes have modems in them and some donít.

In the case of LLU you would have to be using ADSL2 and some other service provider/wholesale carrierís hardware would be parked in the exchange and your copper line would be connected to that. Also the link from the exchange heading away, ultimately towards the internet, might very well be run by a non-BTW wholesale carrier such as TalkTalk. So thatís two differences. But it would still be the same crappy old copper line from your house to the exchange in the case if ADSL2, with or without LLU. And maintenance would still be done by the exact same Openreach guys if LLU. LLU doesnít mean that you get a different phone line to your house.

Sincere apologies if you knew all if that already.

I knew some of this but thanks for the explanation. If I understand it right I would have the same copper pair and everything else with LLU equipment at the exchange being the only difference, but what I meant was I can at least change that little bit of my service so when I get a chance I'll do that. My only choices for BB at all here is VDSL or ADSL so I would move the only piece I can away from BTW. I also want to do without DLM as I'm starting to realise how bad it really is, especially if you have a fault that DLM can't fix.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 09:52:02 AM by dslcrazy »
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aesmith

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2019, 03:43:33 PM »

A&A completely disabled DLM on my line, which is pure BT 21CN ADSL.
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dslcrazy

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2019, 08:51:58 PM »

A&A completely disabled DLM on my line, which is pure BT 21CN ADSL.

That's something then, didn't know BTW would even allow to fully disable DLM right now. Maybe I can see about getting it not to do stupid things with my own provider if and when my fault clears.

Still holding out for my fault to be fixed and my contract is another barrier so my gripes about DLM and wether or not the exchange equipment might be crappy in my area is a moot point until I can actually change something.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 08:54:41 PM by dslcrazy »
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aesmith

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2019, 08:54:31 AM »

When I was getting a crappy service from Plusnet I leaned on them to agree I could leave in contract and without penalty.  They agreed surprisingly readily,  I suppose because it was something they could actually do. 
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Weaver

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Re: ADSL fault..
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2019, 10:09:44 AM »

AA disabled DLM for one of my BT 21CN ADSL2 lines too. I have several DSL lines and AA did not get round to disabling DLM for my other DSL lines. BT DLM seems to go crackers when there are certain types of bad faults.
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