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Author Topic: Which ADSL2+ provider?  (Read 2533 times)

huwwatkins

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Which ADSL2+ provider?
« on: February 24, 2019, 03:34:43 PM »

Hi
I'm moving in to a house that does not have FTTC. Options looks like they are Sky LLU, Talktalk LLU or BT ADSL2+

Which would of these would be the best option? I recall TalkTalk now have fairly aggressive DLM on their ADSL lines now - how about Sky and BT? Can you still tweak the SNR margin on these?

Kind Regards

Huw
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burakkucat

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2019, 03:59:15 PM »

I recall TalkTalk now have fairly aggressive DLM on their ADSL lines now

As a TT ADSL2 user, I'm not so sure about that. In my case DLM has been (and is) disabled for the circuit.

However that does not help you make your choice. What are your requirements? A broadband connection to the Internet; telephony; other gizmos?

Assuming you can ignore the taint of the Murdock family, then Sky might be a viable option.  :-\
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siofjofj

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2019, 05:27:31 PM »

Also as a TT ADSL2+ user, I can say that I am fairly happy with the service. Perfectly reasonable prices and to be honest I've found the support adequate (I've had to use it many times in the past year or so due to a very odd fault), despite the many reviews you can find. I've never really used their phone support so can't comment there, however their forums are fine and frustration free, though perhaps a little slow. They effectively act as a ticket system which some other ISPs use. I can also confirm that I experience no congestion issues (though perhaps wouldn't anyway on ADSL due to the locally reduced speeds anyway).

With regard to the more technical points you ask, I believe I can provide some insight:

Options looks like they are Sky LLU, Talktalk LLU or BT ADSL2+
As I'm sure you are aware, you will have the choice of not only those three CPs, but also those using TalkTalk wholesale or BT Wholesale.

Can you still tweak the SNR margin on these?
As I understand it, the SNRM tweak operates during the channel analysis stage of the synchronisation where the modem responds to the exchange DSLAM with (among other things) the available SNR for each frequency channel. The tweak works by your modem lying to the DSLAM, saying the SNR is greater (for Broadcom tweak values less than 100) or lower (for tweak values above 100) than it really is. This means that for a 6dB target with a tweak value of 50, your modem will tell the DSLAM that the SNRM is 6dB when it is only 3dB in reality. Naturally, there is nothing an ISP can do to prevent this (with a small caveat as detailed below) as from their end it just looks like the 6dB (or whatever) SNRM originally aimed for. As such, you should be able to do this with any ADSL service.

I recall TalkTalk now have fairly aggressive DLM on their ADSL lines now
In early 2017 TT introduced a new DLM system for their ADSL lines from ASSIA, rolling it out exchange by exchange. I am fairly sure it is now in use on all TT LLU exchanges. Under the old system there were a set of published line profiles that DLM would move you between, and you could ask support to put you on a particular one either on a temporary basis or with the DLM disabled so you never changed profile again. I read conflicting reports as to whether or not it can be disabled entirely any more. Certainly the OCEs on the forum for TT retail tell users it can't be, but it may be the case that users that previously had it disabled continue to be in that situation (e.g. burakkucat). I have also heard comments that connections wholesaled through TT Business can have it disabled or fixed at certain profiles, and this page https://support.aa.net.uk/TalkTalk_Wholesale_Line_Profiles strongly suggests this is the case.

There seems to be very little information about how the new DLM system behaves for TT retail, but I can give you my observations. Firstly it can be reset without any problems with a so called "connection optimisation" by the OCEs on the forum. I have never seen my connection operate in fastpath mode, and I usually see quite high interleave depths. My interleave depth is currently 64, but I have seen it as high as 512 following a fault. The other thing it does is after a reset, it learns the fastest speed your connection operates at and sets that as a cap. This is the source of the caveat I mentioned earlier, as if you get the DLM reset with your modem set to no SNRM tweak, then your line will sync at the normal 6 dB target rate which will then be set as a cap. Subsequently applying a tweak down to 3dB will then do nothing as you will hit the cap. To get the extra speed you have to apply the 3 dB tweak then request a DLM reset (this sped my connection up from 16.0Mbps to 19.7Mbps). The TT DLM never applies a target SNRM of 3dB itself, this can only be done using the tweak on Broadcom modems. As far as I know though both BT Wholesale and Sky do use the 3dB target, and sky even use G.INP (for clarity yes, this is G.INP on ADSL), so these may be more attractive for this reason.

This is probably a bit of an information overload for the question of which ISP, so in summary I'll just say that I think TT retail are fine with reasonable support, some minor DLM technicalities that can be worked around and there is no IPv6 connectivity if you care about that.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 06:55:35 PM by siofjofj »
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huwwatkins

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2019, 09:12:07 AM »

Hi
Thanks for the responses -
burakkucat - we will be streaming and gaming on this so a lot of demand on the connection. No issues with using Sky - is their DLM similar to TT? I recall there being issues with the upoad sync being capped on them too?

siofjofj - thanks that's exactly the sort of information I was looking for! Good to see that the DLM can be worked around. The speed estimate for where I am moving to is between 8 and 15Mbps and I'd quite like it to be on the top part of that range.

I think what will likely happen is that between my wife streaming netflix and myself gaming we will need two lines so possibly one Sky LLU (are there any Sky LLU re-sellers?)and one TT LLU based.

Thanks
Huw
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siofjofj

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2019, 07:36:47 PM »

Sky - is their DLM similar to TT? I recall there being issues with the upoad sync being capped on them too?
Sorry, no idea. There seems to be a similar amount of information online regarding Sky's DLM as there is regarding TalkTalk's (i.e. not much). I've never been with Sky, so have no observations to report. It's from odd forum posts here and there that I've gathered the information about G.INP and 3dB target SNRM.

The speed estimate for where I am moving to is between 8 and 15Mbps and I'd quite like it to be on the top part of that range.
For my line, the BT Wholesale ADSL checker gives a "Downstream Line Rate" of "Up to 7" Mbps and a "Downstream Range" of 4.5 - 11 Mbps, though I get much more than this at 19.7Mbps. Every line is different though so you'll just have to see.

are there any Sky LLU re-sellers?
The only one I know of is NowTV, though this is really just a rebrand of the exact same service.

we will need two lines so possibly one Sky LLU
I guess the sensible thing to do is to start with a single line and see if it is sufficient for your needs. HD Netflix only requires around 5Mbps so you might have no problems.

If you do find you need two lines bear in mind that Sky do not support PPPoEoA, so using a separate modem for each line and then a load balancing router connected to each modem won't be possible. Work arounds for this include keeping the two connections completely separate, using a load balancing router with a built in ADSL modem (no idea if such a thing exists), using a router on the Sky line which then connects to the load balancing router (and putting up with the resulting double NAT), using the Draytek Vigor 130 modem on the Sky line (this does PPPoE to PPPoA conversion, but doesn't support SNRM tweaking) or of course not choosing Sky.

Another, more radical, idea is to have two lines bonded together to give you exactly double the download and upload speeds, even for single threaded down/uploads. This requires a specialist ISP and special hardware at your end. I understand Weaver on this forum does this, using Andrews & Arnold as the ISP and a Firebrick router.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 07:39:34 PM by siofjofj »
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Weaver

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2019, 08:14:22 AM »

I do indeed bolt multiple dsl lines together, getting multiple speed on single downloads in either up or down direction. The vastly increased reliability that I get is superb, as one line can fail and no one ever notices.
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huwwatkins

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2019, 09:29:28 AM »

Hi
I do plan on doing something similar but using two Open VPN connections to machine I have in a hosting centre, bonding them together and using per packet round robin load balancing. I suspect there will be issues with out of order packets but we will see. Failing that I may be giving AAISP a call.

I think FTTP might be coming but getting solid information out of my regional BDUK people is proving difficult.
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Weaver

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 01:08:34 AM »

Out of order packet phenomenon can be a nuisance for me sometimes I suspect, no proof without struggling poring through traffic captures. I have four lines which is one too many and lines with differing speeds, wildly so on the upstream which could well be causing me performance problems.

I would think some systems software is better than other offerings in respect of how intelligently and responsibly it handles out-of-orderness. It would be nice if protocol stack designers had experience living with it themselves so that they would be motivated to do the right thing.
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burakkucat

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 09:23:15 PM »

Certainly the OCEs on the forum for TT retail tell users it can't be, but it may be the case that users that previously had it disabled continue to be in that situation (e.g. burakkucat).

I have a suspicion that there has been some misunderstanding by the "lower levels" of TT support . . . A misunderstanding based upon the two different DLM processes: the Openreach DLM version for the FTTC GEA product and the TT DLM version for their ADSL product.
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siofjofj

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2019, 08:00:56 AM »

I have a suspicion that there has been some misunderstanding by the "lower levels" of TT support
Quite possibly. I've never pushed the issue since requesting a reset is very easy.

A misunderstanding based upon the two different DLM processes: the Openreach DLM version for the FTTC GEA product and the TT DLM version for their ADSL product.
There certainly is this confusion on their forum without a doubt. When I requested a DLM reset last time, the first reply to my post was from a "Community Superstar" (not TalkTalk staff, just a volunteer forum moderator I think) who said that only Openreach can perform a DLM reset. They then told me to do a "30 minute reset", meaning leave the router off for 30 minutes as this "resets the DLM". Of course this is complete rubbish, and probably is a corruption of the advice you can find on this site advising that when turning off a VDSL modem it should be left of for 30 minutes to prevent DLM seeing the resync as instability.
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huwwatkins

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2019, 04:46:14 PM »

A Quick update on this.

I now have two lines through talk talk business. One that was installed yesterday and one in the process of being lost in the Openreach job booking system installed.

My first line synced with a target margin of 12dB (9308Kbps sync on a 31dB attenuation line). I spoke to TalkTalk Business CS and they manually changed it to 6dB but more importantly they confirmed that I could come back and ask for it to be turned off completely and they would do this. Presumably they could also switch me to fastpath.

So - it's possible different policies are applied to Talktalk Retail and everyone else.
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burakkucat

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Re: Which ADSL2+ provider?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2019, 06:53:34 PM »

I would recommend that you do not ask to have interleaving removed until you have monitored the performance of both circuits for some time, perhaps a month (minimum).
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