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Author Topic: Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number  (Read 1616 times)

snadge

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Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number
« on: February 04, 2019, 03:30:44 PM »

I remember reading somewhere years ago that Routers broadcasting on the same frequency and channel actually communicate with each other so they can take turns (alternate) broadcasting packets as not to cause interference, alternating many hundreds/thousands of times a second.... is this true? and that being on a well-used channel is better than sitting on an 'overlapping' channel as the 'overlap' becomes noise drastically reducing bandwidth.... poo or true?

thanks in advance
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licquorice

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Re: Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2019, 03:45:22 PM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-sense_multiple_access_with_collision_avoidance

Not entirely convinced in this day and age of streaming. It would be ok in a 'bursty' environment, but not so sure when a channel is saturated by a stream.
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Weaver

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Re: Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2019, 04:14:16 PM »

They should hear one another and coordinate, if I remember correctly. And this is indeed better than the situation where a router or access point is transmitting across a range that straddles another range of frequencies. In the 2.4GHz band, transmitting devices do not use one ‘channel number’ but a whole range of frequencies, so that for example channels 1 and 6 do not overlap but any closer than that, say 1 and 5 or 2 and 6 and there will be some corruption.

If the channels are only spaced four apart, eg 1 and 5, any degradation from frequency overlap will be extremely extremely mild and in that case basically harmless, but 1 and 4 would not be good.

In fact, the only channel numbers that should ever be used are 1 6 and 11+ or alternatively 1 5 9 13 provided that both (i) all four are actually being used and (ii) all neighbours also agree to use that arrangement and not a mixture of 1 5 9 13 plus 1 6 11. If a network is so heavily loaded that it is better to have four always busy channels than three, then the 33% extra capacity that is made available is worth the very slight performance degradation that comes from spacing of 4 channels apart rather than 5.

If your neighbours are using 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 then have them killed, with the one exception of the case where you are all willing to agree to the 1 5 9 13 plan instead of 1 6 11. You will also have to be careful to watch out for the arrival of any new neighbours who do not know that you are using 1 5 9 13 and who will wreck everything by using the standard 1 6 11 layout.

In 2.4GHz transmitting a standard 20MHz wide channel occupies just one of the three slots 1 6 11. Occasionally some greedy people get double speed performance by transmitting on a double-width channel, 40MHz wide and so occupying both say 1+6 or 6+11. This is not a good idea if you have neighbours as there are then only two valid slots. If you are miles from anywhere then it’s different of course.

In 5GHz, there is none of this overlapping channel numbers nonsense and with a standard 20MHz wide channel you can’t transmit on the wrong channel numbers so straddling someone else. The 5GHz channel numbers are multiples of 5MHz and the only possible numbers are multiples of 4 ( 4 * 5MHz = 20MHz) eg 36 40 44 48 etc. I’m not sure whether it is even possible to use weird numbers such as 37,48,39.

Transmitting on a pair of adjacent channels is common, such as channel 36 + 40 (which occupies 36-39 40-43 if you like). It is important not to get out of step with neighbours with this though, so that your pairs half-overlap one another, so do not have one person transmitting on 36+40 and the other on 40+44. Agree on a common pattern of 5GHz channel use if you are going to use 40MHz wide channels (pairs).

In 5GHz more recent kit can use even more than just two channels ie 40MHz wide. 80MHz (four adjacent channels) and even 160MHz (eight adjacent channels) is sometimes possible. Using these can clearly be a disaster unless coordinated with neighbours.

The only 80MHz wide groupings that I would allow would be sets of fours as follows:
36-48  (ie 36+40+44+48)
52-64
100-112
116-128
124-136
149-161

So it is possible to get into a real mess with using the wrong blocks of multiple 5GHz channel numbers when using extra-wide channels.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 04:18:06 PM by Weaver »
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Ronski

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Re: Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2019, 05:32:30 PM »

Nice explanation weaver, thanks
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Ronski

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Re: Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2019, 08:48:53 PM »

Just had a look at my two AP's, both were set to auto, one was straddling other networks, and the other was set to 40Mhz now changed to 20Mhz and set to specific channels. So we now have three nice humps using the 1-6-11, although there is quite a weak signal that's using channel 2.

5G only shows my own network, which is using channels 34 - 50.
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Weaver

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Re: Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2019, 09:18:42 PM »

I would definitely recommend sticking to single-width ie 20MHz wide only on 2.4GHz, unless you have no neighbours, as it is so greedy and antisocial.

Use 5GHz instead and do 40MHz-wide channels then happily, at say 34+n * 8 always for the lower channel number in a 20+20=40MHz 5GHz pair. Even though 5GHz doesn’t have the range or the penetration, the lack of interference and the easy ability to use double, or quad-width (80MHz wide) means very high speeds.
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j0hn

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Re: Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2019, 09:34:50 PM »

I've had channel 11 all to myself for a few years, with my neighbours on 1 or 6.

Then a couple months ago a Post Office SSID (using a zyxel of some sort) appeared on channel 7.
Just over a week ago this moved to channel 8.
No idea which neighbour it is.

I've moved along to channel 13 a couple days ago but I have over a dozen 2.4Ghz devices and not all them will do channel 13.
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Weaver

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Re: Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2019, 09:56:26 PM »

One other thing that I forgot to say. If you are going to intentionally be on the same channel as a neighbour, it’s only ok if you are either close or extremely far away. If you are sufficiently far away that the other people can not reliably hear when you are about to start talking then there will be big problems with interference for both parties because collision detection and avoidance won’t work reliably - in plain English, if you can’t hear that someone else is talking or is about to start talking, then you could start talking at the same time and you will both talk over each other, and the result will be a garbled mess.

Leaving aside issues if neighbours, this can be a problem just in one single WLAN with no neighbours in the case where two devices (‘stations’) are diametrically positioned, as far apart as they can be, with the router or wireless access point in the centre and the stations nearly 180 degrees apart. In that arrangement it could be possible that each station can just hear the access point / router and can be heard by it, but the stations can not hear each other talking at double the distance away - one diameter instead of one radius. This is called the hidden station problem. This may not be something that happens in your particular circumstances: It may be that the stations never get that far apart, in a confined building say. Or it may be that the access point / router is not placed at the centre of some area but on the edge, so that stations can never be one whole diameter / 180 degrees apart. This can often happen when a wireless router is near the point where a phone line comes into a house, so it is parked by an outside wall. Not the best for maximum range, if needed, within a large space, but such a long range may not be required. Parking a wireless access point / wireless router in the centre of a space is obviously the best way of maximising the range, but if the diameter is too long then you are into the hidden station problem.

If you do have the hidden station problem, there is a cure. Good wireless access points have a configuration option that is specifically designed to handle the situation. It involves everyone asking for permission to talk before talking. There is some performance overhead because of the extra red tape, extra messages back and forth, but if you do have the hidden station problem,  performance is far better with this organised conversation model than with constant errors, garbled messages and chaos. I don’t know if some models of wireless access point / wireless router can make the configuration change going from chaotic mode to organised mode intelligently and automatically. My ZyXEL wireless access point requires that the configuration change is made by hand and unfortunately a human has to be around who can recognised the possible danger of the hidden station scenario.
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snadge

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Re: Routers broadcasting WiFi on the same channel number
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2019, 03:04:00 PM »

@ Weaver - thanks for the wealth of input
thanks for enlightening me about the Hidden Node Problem...
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