Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: High Target SNR.  (Read 7388 times)

j0hn

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4093
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2018, 12:57:03 PM »

that is an error prone line.

It isnt fast path yet has accumulated dozens of SES.  Hard for me to comment much further then that tho.  As very limited info.

There are absolutely zero timers to tell how long those errors have been over.

Also there is no fastpath... the line has Retx.

If you are still using the HG612, the GUI looks perfectly OK to me.

You have a special HG612.
The GUI has always been buggy for me with values mixed up.

These are the stats after doing a reboot this evening

Can you please use the xdslcmd info --stats command and not the info --show command.

The additional error timers provide huge value.

The line is running at 3dB, that's not late syncing crosstalkers. The attainable drops below sync when that happens.

My theory is this isn't DLM like you think.

I think you have something (noise) that knocks roughly 5dB off your SNRM. This is causing the line to drop sync.
The noise remains when the line syncs back up resulting in lower sync.
Eventually the noise passes increasing the SNRM by 5dB, to the 8dB you had.

The only way you can confirm what is causing your issues is to run DslStats and catch the changes in SNRM.
Logged
Talktalk FTTP 550/75 - Speedtest - BQM

xreyuk

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2018, 01:05:03 PM »

Thanks.

I will try and get DSLStats setup. However, all of my resyncs occur between 00:00 and 00:10, I wouldn't think this would be interference, more likely DLM.
Logged

j0hn

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4093
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2018, 01:09:01 PM »

Then you have the only FTTC line in the UK where DLM has a set time.

DLM used to have a fixed window, once upon a time. That was when FTTC was new.

DLM no longer takes action just after midnight but at ANY time of day.

More likely a piece of electrical equipment on a timer, causing the noise I was describing.

edit: to add... there is no DLM features I'm aware of that raises SNRM by 5dB on a temp basis, without banding.

I'll bet my right nut it isn't DLM related at all.
Logged
Talktalk FTTP 550/75 - Speedtest - BQM

xreyuk

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2018, 01:23:29 PM »

Then you have the only FTTC line in the UK where DLM has a set time.

DLM used to have a fixed window, once upon a time. That was when FTTC was new.

DLM no longer takes action just after midnight but at ANY time of day.

More likely a piece of electrical equipment on a timer, causing the noise I was describing.

edit: to add... there is no DLM features I'm aware of that raises SNRM by 5dB on a temp basis, without banding.

I'll bet my right nut it isn't DLM related at all.

No worries, DSL stats is now running so we'll see what happens.
Logged

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7382
  • VM Gig1 - AAISP L2TP
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2018, 07:46:59 AM »

restart dslstats as it shows the behaviour of the line overtime.

Did you concentrate on the disconnections with plusnet?
Logged

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7382
  • VM Gig1 - AAISP L2TP
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2018, 07:49:43 AM »

There are absolutely zero timers to tell how long those errors have been over.

Also there is no fastpath... the line has Retx.


I said that, I said there is no fastpath on the line.

The timers isnt needed to determine the SES is high, my uptime before my power cut was several months and I still had 0 SES, and my line has no error correction enabled on it.

His line has error correction and has dozens of SES, even if his uptime was a year thats high.  Of course we know it isnt a year as he has been getting resyncs.  So short uptime and dozens of SES equals an error prone line.
Logged

tubaman

  • Senior Kitizen
  • ******
  • Posts: 12519
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2018, 08:20:54 AM »

....

His line has error correction and has dozens of SES, even if his uptime was a year thats high.  ...

??
If that's true then my line is awful.
I gets up to 10 SES every day and many hundreds of ES too. It's running with G.INP at 3dB on the DS and stays in sync for weeks on end. 
Thing is it's always been like this so I assume that's just the way it is.
The issue here is the resyncs, not the actual number of SES.
Hopefully the dslstats data will throw some light on this one.
 :)
Logged
BT FTTC 55/10 Huawei Cab - Zyxel VMG8924-B10A

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7382
  • VM Gig1 - AAISP L2TP
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2018, 10:18:42 AM »

Thanks for the additional info, for sure dslstats may help, I am curious to see if the line is stable for periods of time, but you then getting bursts of noise that generates the SES, and these bursts may also be possibly knocking out the sync, my theory is actually similar to john's I dont know why he commented the way he did on my previous post.
Logged

j0hn

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4093
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2018, 12:27:45 PM »

The timers isnt needed to determine the SES is high, my uptime before my power cut was several months and I still had 0 SES, and my line has no error correction enabled on it.

His line has error correction and has dozens of SES, even if his uptime was a year thats high.  Of course we know it isnt a year as he has been getting resyncs.  So short uptime and dozens of SES equals an error prone line.

I couldn't disagree more.
Every single DLM initiated resync gives me 12 ES and a few SES.

They DON'T count towards the DLM daily limit but they show on the modem until rebooted.

Without timers we have no idea if those errors were over an hour or over a month.

If you think 150 ES/60 SES in a YEAR is high then you need to reevaluate that.

The DLM limit for ES is upto 2880 per day.
How on Earth can 150 in a year be high.
Half the country probably gets those kind of error figures everyday.

??
If that's true then my line is awful.

It absolutely isn't true so don't worry about it.

edit: to add

Quote
Of course we know it isnt a year as he has been getting resyncs.  So short uptime and dozens of SES equals an error prone line.

Those stats don't reset with resyncs but are from the entire modem uptime.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight but simply trying to reassure the OP that those figures aren't necessarily high as was previously pointed out to him.

Without relevant timers those error stats are pretty meaningless and telling OP they are high for a year when his modem may have a short uptime will cause a panic.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 03:41:16 PM by j0hn »
Logged
Talktalk FTTP 550/75 - Speedtest - BQM

johnson

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 838
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2018, 01:30:52 PM »

I agree with j0hn, if its of any use:

Code: [Select]
Total time = 53 days 21 hours 21 min 44 sec
FEC: 2221661739 0
CRC: 26617 1167
ES: 4284 979
SES: 406 0
UAS: 149 149
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0

So roughly 80 ES & 8 SES a day. Perfectly stable line.
Logged

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7382
  • VM Gig1 - AAISP L2TP
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2018, 07:07:56 PM »

i never said anything about his ES, so thats twice you have misinterpreted me.

since when is 4 million divided by 50 equals 80

Also i think its rude the way you have just spoken to me i have been helping diagnose problems on here via stats for years and i have never reacted to someone else advise the way you have.

now if you think me calling a line error prone is going to cause someone to panic i dont know what to say.

i would be interested to see a 53 day ping plot for that line johnson to see what the packet loss is like
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 07:28:09 PM by Chrysalis »
Logged

j0hn

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4093
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2018, 08:20:41 PM »

Cool beans.
You said the SES were high.

I said
Quote
If you think 150 ES/60 SES in a YEAR is high then you need to reevaluate that.

I didn't misinterpret anything, I simply expanded on your statement.

Quote
Also i think its rude the way you have just spoken to me i have been helping diagnose problems on here via stats for years and i have never reacted to someone else advise the way you have.

I disagreed with you.
Please point out where I was rude.

The fact you have been helping people for years on these forums does not mean nobody is allowed to correct you or disagree with you.

Quote
i would be interested to see a 53 day ping plot for that line johnson to see what the packet loss is like

I'm going round in circles here but why do you think 80 ES per day and 8 SES would cause packet loss?

Quote
since when is 4 million divided by 50 equals 80

What? I'm lost. Where's the 4 million coming from.

He had 4284 ES in 53 days.
That's 80.8 ES/day.

I regularly received about 1000 ES and about 20 SES every single day while fastpath.
My BQM didn't show any packet loss.

You're only going to get packet loss with hundreds/thousands of ES an hour.
Logged
Talktalk FTTP 550/75 - Speedtest - BQM

jelv

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2054
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2018, 09:11:11 PM »

Ding ding

End of round one.
Logged
Broadband and Line rental: Zen Unlimited Fibre 2, Mobile: Vodaphone
Router: Fritz!Box 7530

ktz392837

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 559
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2018, 11:09:14 PM »

I agree with j0hn, if its of any use:

Code: [Select]
Total time = 53 days 21 hours 21 min 44 sec
FEC:22216617390
CRC:266171167
ES:4284979
SES:4060
UAS:149149
LOS:00
LOF:00
LOM:00

So roughly 80 ES & 8 SES a day. Perfectly stable line.

Take these figures...

Quote
ES:4284979
SES:4060

do a basic divide by 53 gives you...

ES: 80848/day
SES: 76/day

That ES rate is not that far off one per second so I think packet loss is a certainty.

I am no expert but assuming the modem is reporting the stats correctly this is not a stable line by any stretch of the imagination. 

The maximum ES/day the line may experience before DLM intervention the following day is around 2880 (1440 in some cases).  Not sure about the rules for SES but from my experience if you get several bursts in a short period of time the DLM usually intervenes immediately.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 11:37:16 PM by ktz392837 »
Logged

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33881
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: High Target SNR.
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2018, 01:15:29 AM »

Ding ding
End of round one.

No need for round 2 guys please :)

 
----

My uptime is 8 days, 3hrs, 49 min   (Modem was switched off all day so totals were reset)

Code: [Select]
ES:             297             153
SES:            53              0
UAS:            27              27
AS:             704939

Also no G.INP, but it depends on the type of noise as to how effective retransmission is.   G.INP can work well with low level REIN.  Sharp random noise bursts (eg SHINE lasting more than 10ms) can be problematic even with re-tx and start to accrue SES.
 
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker
Pages: 1 [2] 3