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Author Topic: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines  (Read 4016 times)

j0hn

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2018, 07:26:45 PM »

I noticed in the thread that people say ECI cabinets can do system based vectoring but because of space can't fit the vectoring card in.

I don't think anyone said the ECI M41 can do system level vectoring.
The issue is it can't.
Line card level vectoring is terribly inefficient, especially how the network is arranged.

Sticking 2 together wouldn't help.
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CarlT

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2018, 08:33:27 PM »

Indeed. To upgrade the ECI kit for vectoring in trials Openreach had to replace the backplane and in turn move from M41 to V41. Openreach have no interest in a widespread vectoring deployment anyway.
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kitz

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2018, 11:40:17 PM »

If you add more DSLAMs then that complicates things further.  In that situation even system level vectoring doesn't work because you may have a neighbouring line in the same cable bundle but on a different dslam. 
In this type of situation you need to use node level vectoring so that the 2 dslam vector units can communicate with each other and perform the correct noise cancellation for interconnected devices :(

Node level vectoring is even newer technology than system level.

As others have said the problem with the ECI's isn't so much the green box but space on the backplane.   Whilst not entirely true, the following may aid understanding.    Imagine you have a PC which you use for a lot of graphic rendering.   The onboard GPU is not able to handle the additional processing so you have to purchase a dedicated graphics card which you slot into the motherboard.

The vectoring module is a separate card like a graphics card with its own circuit board and processing designed to handle noise cancellation.
The backplane is sort of like a motherboard into which you plug in various modules.   On a PC this may be things like an ethernet card, sound card, graphics card.  On a dslam the modules will be things like line cards, controller units etc.

Quote
The MA5616s require a separate, add-on,  back-plane for the vectoring engine.
From memory it is almost an internal rebuild as the existing power board and line cards don't support it either.   Whilst it is possible, when it comes to finances I wouldn't think it was that practical or viable.   It could well be nearing the cost of swapping out M41s with V41's by the time you add in labour.   At least the VTU-C64 line cards in some of the ECI's are vectoring ready. 

 
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kitz

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2018, 11:46:17 PM »

PS just had another thought talking about node level vectoring.   
I wonder where that would leave an area with an ECI cab and Huawei cab on the same PCP....  even if it was a V41 rather than M41 in the ECIs. 
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burakkucat

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2018, 11:51:37 PM »

The MA5616s require a separate, add-on,  back-plane for the vectoring engine.

From memory it is almost an internal rebuild as the existing power board and line cards don't support it either.   Whilst it is possible, when it comes to finances I wouldn't think it was that practical or viable.   It could well be nearing the cost of swapping out M41s with V41's by the time you add in labour.   At least the VTU-C64 line cards in some of the ECI's are vectoring ready.

I'm not sure how my statement about the Huawei MA5616s fits in with your comments about the ECI M41s other than, perhaps, to lead onto the fact that to attempt similar with the ECI kit would be a big financial no. I agree that for ECI system based vectoring the M41s would need to be replaced with V41s. And that will not happen.
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burakkucat

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2018, 11:53:26 PM »

PS just had another thought talking about node level vectoring.   
I wonder where that would leave an area with an ECI cab and Huawei cab on the same PCP....  even if it was a V41 rather than M41 in the ECIs.

That is an interesting question. I guess it depends upon what actually controls node level vectoring.
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kitz

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2018, 12:02:49 AM »

>> I'm not sure how my statement about the Huawei MA5616s

Seemed to make sense to me... because so much inside the MA5616's would need replacing.  :(
Therefore the cost of upgrading would likely almost be on a par with cost swapping out the M41s with V41's.   
That's what I meant I said "when it came to finances I doubt it would be practical or viable" [for Openreach] to do so.
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burakkucat

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2018, 12:19:26 AM »

Ah, I didn't realise that is what you meant.  :-[

But there is a separate Huawei card-cage and backplane assembly, specifically for installation adjacent to a basic MA5616, to hold the vectoring engine . . . thus allowing a MA5616 to perform system level vectoring, just like the MA5603T.

The cost would be prohibitive and, agreed, it is another "no".
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ejs

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2018, 05:57:07 PM »

But presumably this "NGA1 512pt DSLAM Upgrade" will involve swapping out some DSLAMs, unless there's some other way to get even more ports into the existing ones (bolt on 2 extra line card slots somehow), or it's not at all what it sounds like it will be. Whatever it is, is at least 4 months away.
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kitz

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2018, 11:22:35 PM »

Quote
swapping out some DSLAMs, unless there's some other way to get even more ports into the existing ones

TBH I don't think viability of the MA5616's is much more than of the M41's when it comes to upgrades. *  But at least the Huaweis have g.inp and thus 3dB.  However it's looking like most of the latest technology could be confined to the  MA5603's

There's quite a bit more to making them vectoring enabled than just adding the cage.   For starters the existing Central Control Unit Board would need upgrading from a CCUB to a CCUE (more specifically a H831CCUE) to be able to support daughter cards.  (to attach a vectoring module to).   
The backplane doesn't appear to be able to support this either and _would_ need upgrading from a H831MABA -> H831MABB.   You'd also need to swap out the power board with one with higher wattage to be able to add the daughter card (200W -> 400W).    There's about only the chassis, fan tray and service board that wouldn't need an upgrade. :(   I'm even doubtful about those if they were to have vectoring as the line cards would also without need replacing so not sure how that would affect the system board.    Finally the real bummer..   because of heat dissipation if you add a vectoring module, then the MA5616's are restricted to just 96 lines (compared to the current max of 128) which could in itself cause headaches for Openreach unless they housed it in a larger S200 **.

Hopefully SRA won't be as drastic as vectoring when it comes to the MA5616's.    But it shows that the smaller Huawei cabs are not without their problems either.

TBH it would probably work out cheaper for Openreach to upgrade the M41's to V41's than it would be to fully upgrade the MA5616's.     Yeah you can add a vectoring module in a cage..  but when the rest of the boards also would need upgrading to support the daughter board, but the time you paid someone to rebuild the MA5616's in the field then it probably works out as cheap to just buy a new [fully complete] dslam.    Which is the point I was trying to make when it came to cost for Openreach.     If OR arent willing to swap out the ECI's then I strongly doubt they will practically rebuild the 5616's by replacing most of the boards in field.   I don't think I was getting my point across too well about just how much needs replacing in the 5616's before you can start adding daughter boards.

It only appears to be the MA5603's which are easily upgradable..  which is probably why they are the units which OR is installing most of these days. 


*Yes they are upgradable, but if would require swapping out practically everything else in the MSAN
** At which point M41 -> V41 swapout is certainly easier than rebuilding the 5616's.


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ejs

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2018, 04:30:47 PM »

I wasn't talking about vectoring.

It sounds like Openreach are planning to have 512 port FTTC DSLAMs, so presumably that will involve replacing some DSLAMs.
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CarlT

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2018, 01:10:53 AM »

They would need to replace the entire cabinet. The only Huawei kit capable, it would actually do 1024 lines, is 20% wider and over 50% taller than the 5603T in the larger cabinets.

Unless they have some latest and greatest kit that isn't yet public stashed somewhere I'm not sure what they can do.

The smaller Huawei can have an HD upgrade too by the way, letting it reach 256 line capacity.
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CarlT

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2018, 01:21:15 AM »

That upgrade is driving me bonkers. I've reached out to a couple of people to try and find out what they are up to. I have seen the reference to the upgrade. I guess the obvious way is higher density line cards, 4 x 96 and 2 x 64 would do it.

Will spread the word if I can find out.
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j0hn

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2018, 08:25:58 PM »

Might this be related to...

Quote
In addition, we are working closely with our vendors Huawei and Nokia to develop quicker alternatives to building new fibre cabinets which can traditionally take up to nine months to complete. We are about to launch technical trials for a fibre cabinet side-pod and new fibre cabinet equipment capable of supporting double the current capacity. Following successful trials we are aiming to start deploying this kit in the next financial year.

https://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/8252-the-scale-of-the-problem-of-openreach-cabinets-at-capacity

The SRA discussion has gone quite off-topic.
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michty_me

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Re: Openreach Expand Large Scale Trial of SRA on FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2019, 10:17:38 AM »

On the topic of SRA, Are there any tell tale signs on stats that it is active on your line?

Also, What implications would there be if it was active but with SRA off on the modem (Zyxel)?
I recall when setting up the Zyxel, I was advised to leave SRA off. If I were to switch it on, Would and it was not activated on my line, Would there be adverse effects?
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