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Author Topic: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)  (Read 1075 times)

kitz

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Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« on: August 09, 2018, 10:55:14 AM »

Thought this may be of interest to Weaver.   

Whitespace uses frequencies no longer used by TV stations to provide internet access in hard to reach places.
TV White Space has advantages over WiFi in that it works over uneven terrain and doesn't require line of sight with a range of up to 10km.

Quote
Our solution can offer connectivity for distances of up to 10km, much further than you'd get with Wi-Fi or 3G/4G/5G services.
Trees? Hills? Buildings? No problem, Whitespace solutions can handle all of these.
From one user to several thousand, Whitespace solutions can start as big or as small as needed, and scale very quickly when required.

Quote
Communities
Do you live in a broadband not-spot? Are you struggling to get the service your community needs? We can deliver high-speed, affordable internet services to even the most rural areas.

Individuals
Whether you live in a remote rural location, have an unusual building, or have been refused service from the traditional ISP's we can get you connected.

https://whitespacetechnology.net/

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kitz

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2018, 10:57:01 AM »

How TVWhitespace works


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Weaver

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2018, 11:16:31 AM »

I have read a bit about it. No tv at all here - it is satellite or nothing. Janet has Freesat now, binned Sky as too expensive now I do not ever go downstairs and do not watch telly any more.

These rf systems are useless for a business because ther is no ip address space usually, no choice of isps, and no SLA or ring-fenced throughout guarantees, it's completely shared bandwidth, like trad Virgin coax?

There is a long range RF system with a node in the village already in fact.
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kitz

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2018, 12:09:01 PM »

>>  No tv at all here - it is satellite or nothing.

It's like wifi, only it uses the frequencies no longer used by terrestrial TV channels.   

I've seen photos etc of several of their installations in progress as I know one of the guys who has been in on it from the start.  Actually as the company has expanded, I know about half a dozen of the people who now work for them - I'm sure Jelv will too and know they are usually very good at what they do.

This is from one of their installs which I've screen capped as theres an indication on this of the speeds.

Just thought you may be interested.

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Weaver

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2018, 12:22:28 PM »

I suspect it really will play a part in expanding frequency space for mobile phones too. I read something about location-aware radios, which know what frequencies are ok to use in a particular spot because all transmitters that are using those frequencies are sufficiently far away and so you will not cause interference. That was the context in which I have heard this term, smart radios, that use multiple varying bands and even due channel bonding of multiple links in completely different bands to get throughout. This is the kind of research going on. So needs software, complex algorithms to be evaluated and debugged not just testing of code.

It is a much more sophisticated system than DFS say, and that algorithm where you have to just listen for ten minutes or whatever, checking for radar and then you can transmit.

Very interested, in general, not for around here as no TV stations anyway. The one at Dłn Creige or wherever, near Plockton anyway, isn't innline of sight, and there used to be a repeater for it which was put up by someone in the village for all I know, and which I suspect eventually broke.

That is a lot faster btw than the current horrible rf system in the village. I am trying to work out if they are advertising aiming at ISPs? I get that feel, but I am not sure who they are talking to. Good for them.

With all these shared-link systems it would be good if business users especially could buy a ring-fenced slice of bandwidth, a virtual pipe, so they would have a real guarantee of what was actually being sold to them, not finding out that it is slower than dialup one night because three kids are doing torrent uploads or downloads or Andy Murray is in action at Wimbledon.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 12:37:35 PM by Weaver »
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roseway

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2018, 01:27:27 PM »

Quote
Very interested, in general, not for around here as no TV stations anyway.

I think you're missing the point. This service doesn't use existing TV transmitters, it merely uses what are now unused frequencies previously used for TV. There's no obvious reason why it couldn't be installed where you are.
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  Eric

Weaver

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2018, 01:32:09 PM »

I realised belatedly that I am indeed, Roseway, my friend. More getting my wires crossed perhaps or some other cliché. Drugs.

I am very much against shared-link stuff because it isn't for me, and I am unsure whether these guys resell to ISPs or whether they are one - maybe the former, which is good for me.

Because I saw the keyword whitespace and had pre-existing associations with mobile commas technology research, I was also misled.

Duh.

I do not understand the 'how' of their going over hills. If they are using the right wavelengths and it happens to work then excellent, good for them for solving it. TV here did not go over low hills at all - had to be line of sight. It was the same where I grew up, our farmhouse was on the north side of a hill. On top of the hill, in the far distance, there was the 1MW ERP Sutton Coldfield monster way to the south, equal-first place most powerful in the country. But our house was just below the top of the hill and so we could not see it and had a directional antenna pointing in a completely different direction. If the antenna had been moved to the top of the hill we would have been laughing, but it would have been a huge coax run and something very serious would have had to be done about the catastrophic in-line losses, with a head-end amp, and then some, and power injection. So then these guys must be doing something a lot better.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 01:43:51 PM by Weaver »
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kitz

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2018, 01:51:57 PM »

Nominet are backing a lot of the new and recent developments in TV Whitespace technology.

Quote from Nominet

Quote
TV White Space

TV white space (TVWS) is the name given to parts of the wireless spectrum that were freed up during the digital TV switchover. Using DSM to manage the usage of the spectrum, TVWS radios offer broadband speeds over several kilometres and the signal can travel through permanent obstacles such as buildings and trees, as well as around terrain.


Nominet video

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Weaver

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2018, 01:53:38 PM »

Yeah, until you showed me this, I had only ever heard about it in respect of future mobile phone tech.
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jelv

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2018, 03:21:48 PM »

Actually as the company has expanded, I know about half a dozen of the people who now work for them - I'm sure Jelv will too and know they are usually very good at what they do.

Looking at https://whitespacetechnology.net/about-us/: Mark, Mand and James - wow! If I was setting up a tech. company and had to pick from ex-Plusnet employees I can't think of anyone I'd put above those three! I wonder if they took the GM Maestro with them?
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mark

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2018, 07:23:25 PM »

Kelly :waves

John, many thanks for the massive compliment. It's been a while since we exchanged comments on a forum, it's like old times. Kitz - good to "see" you too and hi every one else.

@weaver We'll happily look at where you live. As others have said, we deploy our own base stations generally nowhere near a TV mast and where we can deliver the optimum service.

James will pop in soon and can happily take this forward, at least from an informational perspective if it suits.

M
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Whitespace

mark

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2018, 07:50:47 PM »

@weaver

Some comments from me:

Quote
That is a lot faster btw than the current horrible rf system in the village. I am trying to work out if they are advertising aiming at ISPs? I get that feel, but I am not sure who they are talking to. Good for them.

With all these shared-link systems it would be good if business users especially could buy a ring-fenced slice of bandwidth, a virtual pipe, so they would have a real guarantee of what was actually being sold to them, not finding out that it is slower than dialup one night because three kids are doing torrent uploads or downloads or Andy Murray is in action at Wimbledon.

We primarily serve end customers. We are the ISP and tend to work with local communities, parish councils or district councils to engage with and deliver to the numerous villages across the country and indeed further afield.

We do serve businesses and we can prioritise or seperate business traffic to preserve the experience. Provisioning and allocating sufficient capacity to ensure an excellent customer experience from day one is critical. We've all been there with over contended services and the pain and dis sat it causes all round.

The service is non line of sight and it works. hills, trees and buildings we can handle. large lumps of granite stuck between our base radio and the client radio tends to present a problem but our careful pre planning and boots on the ground site surveys mean we get the base location right from the off. I dont think I've seen a site yet where we cant deliver service but I'm pretty sure thats bound to come. We do love a challenge.

 
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Whitespace

johnson

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2018, 08:12:08 PM »

I dont think I've seen a site yet where we cant deliver service but I'm pretty sure thats bound to come. We do love a challenge.

Have you been to Skye?  ;D

Seriously though this sounds really great, where do you usually source your backhaul links in these remote locations, BT fibre headends?

Slightly OT but is there any way to get into this as a home gamer? Some brief googling and I see I can make a scanner for the locally available whitespace from a cheap RTL SDR, but what about transmitters and receivers? Are they affordable enough for someone who just wanted to play with long range links?

Last question I promise, what does the CPE look like in your setup, is an outdoor directional antenna required?
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Weaver

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2018, 01:31:19 AM »

I am not remotely interested in changing ISP because my current one is so uniquely fantastic. I would be interested in asking them if they would partner with someone who wholesales. And a setup where there is not a rock solid guarantee if minimum bandwidth ring-fenced off the shared network  is not for me. I don't want to know lucky maximum performance I only want to know absolute worst case minimum performance because my wife is trying to get work done. I am prepared to, and do pay the costs of obtaining such guarantees. A great many people locally would benefit from this technology, and I would if it were wholesaled and had a virtual pipe and SLA (almost, or actually). But I am going for FTTP when I can afford it and am not in the market to switch ISPs anyway.

Take a look at the location, I am the first house in the village (see earlier detailed thread if I can find it), northernmost and highest north, of IV49 9BN Heasta, Isle of Skye. Post codes are useless because of inadequate res and always take customers to number 6 based on that postcode.

You could help a lot of locals but only provided they care about internet at all, care about performance at all, know that something not called BT could possibly exist and it does not cost more than £9.99pm  ???  ;) Incomers are possibly pretty fed up with 0.5 - 2.5 MBps ADSL2+ and so are youngsters who leave and have no purchasing authority. Others were happy with dialup because they could do web and get emails for their B&B bookings. I am a very small business. I have 8 / 1.1 Mbps about to go to c 10 / 1.5 Mbps TCP payload throughout from four IP-bonded 2.5 Mbps ADSL2 lines, 7300m 65dB attn superb copper and very reliable because of the IP-bonding's load sharing and effective failover-like characteristics. I have actual failover to 3G plus excellent 4G which is too expensive to use. And I have 4G-equipped iPads and a 4G emergency portable wireless router.

Do get in touch if you want any assistance, or even better come and find an excuse for a visit. When you look at the map you will see the challenge.
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JamesB

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Re: Whitespace Broadband (TVWS)
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2018, 11:59:36 AM »

Hi everyone!

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Have you been to Skye?  ;D

No, but I'd love to!

Quote
Seriously though this sounds really great, where do you usually source your backhaul links in these remote locations, BT fibre headends?

Basically wherever we can.  For a single point to point user, we might look at a local FTTC service, if it looks like it's a viable option, otherwise, we would get a quote from a number of backhaul providers and make a decision based on cost and availability. A lot of planning would go in prior to this to ensure that our backhaul location is optimal based on a number of factors remotely and then completing a field survey to get a better feel of the way of the land.

Quote
Slightly OT but is there any way to get into this as a home gamer? Some brief googling and I see I can make a scanner for the locally available whitespace from a cheap RTL SDR, but what about transmitters and receivers? Are they affordable enough for someone who just wanted to play with long range links?

In all honesty, probably not.  The radios that we use to deliver the signal are generally not in the bracket for what a single home user would probably pay. However, having said that, we do have a couple of single point to point high networth users who were happy to pay the upfront costs associated with the installation.

Additionally, I should add that Nominet and Ofcom police the frequencies and we have to pay for a transmission license for every connection that we have.  We also have to connect via a TVWS database to ensure that we are only using a "channel" that is available to be used, to ensure protection to TV and PMSE. I'd advise caution trying to transmit to this end without having the necessary conversations with the above bodies first :)

Quote
Last question I promise, what does the CPE look like in your setup, is an outdoor directional antenna required?

Yep, it's a vertically polarised (TV is horizontal) directional antenna.  I'm actually spending a good chunk of next week pretending to be a field engineer and testing a bunch of different aerials at different sites in Sheffield (using our roof as the base) to determine which deliver the best quality of signal and to see if we need to get our aerial supplier to make any improvements (they are great like that!).

Cheers,
James
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James Bailey

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Whitespace Technology Ltd
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