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Author Topic: Need advice, possible fault  (Read 3248 times)

sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2018, 12:12:39 AM »


I've done a 'noisy' line test via CIX's control panel (who I have line rental with) and a minute or so later it results in 'Line test OK. Dial tone OK' from Openreach. I have the option of running this test automatically every 4 hours for 24 hours, so I may try that at some point. In the meantime I'm going to swap back to the analogue phone in a moment and switch the DrayTek 2860 with either the ZyXeL or HG612 so I can use DSLstats to fetch more stats such as Hlog and QLN and post those here.

(Watch this space)

Any suggestions in the meantime are welcome.

It does sound like there is an external line fault, and there is nothing you can do about it, other than ask your CP to fix it. 

Meanwhile, Id not swap any phones, or filters, or modems, just leave it all alone, and report that there is audible noise on the phone line (if there is).   If external, it is not a problem that you can fix.   But by continuously swapping appuratus you may be confusing the symptoms, maybe giving the impression it is broadband fault rather than a line fault, and  making it harder to get agreement that the line itself is faulty.
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Ixel

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2018, 11:01:09 AM »

It does sound like there is an external line fault, and there is nothing you can do about it, other than ask your CP to fix it. 

Meanwhile, Id not swap any phones, or filters, or modems, just leave it all alone, and report that there is audible noise on the phone line (if there is).   If external, it is not a problem that you can fix.   But by continuously swapping appuratus you may be confusing the symptoms, maybe giving the impression it is broadband fault rather than a line fault, and  making it harder to get agreement that the line itself is faulty.

Sorry for the late reply. Indeed, it does sounds like it but sadly the test refuses to pick up a problem. I've started an 'extended line test' from CIX's control panel which will run a line test every 4 hours for 24 hours, but I highly doubt it'll find a problem still. DLM intervened last night and has relaxed the error correction on the upstream (from INP 4 delay 8 to fastpath). Downstream is still interleaved but hopefully that'll go back to fastpath within the next few days. The connection is capped slightly in order to try and help encourage DLM to switch everything back to fastpath possibly a little quicker.

At the moment I can't hear any noticeable noise on the phone calls and nobody here is reporting any unusual noise, but at least 50% or more of the time I make or receive a phone call I usually encounter a drop in SNR (especially for the U1 band). I can't imagine this is normal, but at the same time I don't imagine it's something that'll convince Openreach that something isn't right.

See the images at https://imgur.com/a/b2XVGoh - Comments from anyone are welcome. I will contact AAISP next week and see what they suggest too, hopefully by then the downstream will be back on fastpath again and so it should then be easier to see errors on Yukon in the event that I might get plenty of errors. The blips in SNR shown on the graphs are when someone made a call this morning and the most recent one was when I received a brief call.

Also one other thing maybe worth mentioning, the downstream FEC errors have been constantly at the rate shown in the above URL since around 11pm last night, prior to that it was just the odd blips of up to 1500 ish but most of the time just a handful to a few hundred downstream FEC errors.

I've not changed the filter or cables for the last two days or so, the DECT phones (recently purchased BT Advanced Phone Z) are also connected. One last thing I tried recently was to reposition some of the equipment inside my server cabinet in case something was causing some kind of interference. Sadly it hasn't made any difference.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 11:08:13 AM by Ixel »
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Ixel

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2018, 01:10:34 PM »

Just another update, and probably the final one for today, to say that the FEC errors on the downstream have returned to reasonable levels and there's no more CRC error blips on the downstream at the moment since then. The underlying problem however is still there, whatever that might be.

FEC errors graph: https://i.imgur.com/SGDi3SR.png

I just did a quiet line test on my BT Advanced Z DECT phone and rarely I thought I heard a crackle or hiss (unusual noise pretty much) over about two minutes. Another odd thing was when I first tried to dial 17070 I got no dial tone, but I can't be 100% sure if that was just me having a strange moment with my handset or whether it was indeed no dial tone. SNR did the same thing as before as shown on the graph link to imgur on the post above this one. I will attempt to record the crackle/hiss sound with my mobile phone next as proof and then contact AAISP on Monday to also see what they suggest doing regarding this anomaly. Most likely I guess I'll have to submit a noise fault via CIX's control panel and then hope the Openreach engineer notices something either on their own test(s) or that they also notice potential crackling/hissing or some other unusual noise after a while (assuming they will also do a QLT).

EDIT: I thought I'd see what happens on the Hlog while I'm on the phone doing a quiet line test, U1 band becomes slightly less smooth and I also notice a faint sound of the modem synchronising (is that normal?).

Hlog graph: https://i.imgur.com/spDIGTs.png
« Last Edit: June 30, 2018, 03:28:45 PM by Ixel »
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burakkucat

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2018, 04:30:28 PM »

EDIT: I thought I'd see what happens on the Hlog while I'm on the phone doing a quiet line test, U1 band becomes slightly less smooth and I also notice a faint sound of the modem synchronising (is that normal?).

Hlog graph: https://i.imgur.com/spDIGTs.png

Everything you have described points towards a joint that is showing slight HR or semi-conductive tendencies. The problem will be in locating the joint in question. Often such a joint can be near impossible to find . . . until it goes "hard" and fails completely.
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konrado5

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2018, 04:32:26 PM »

Is this Hlog characteristic of HR joint ?
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burakkucat

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2018, 04:49:14 PM »

Is this Hlog characteristic of HR joint ?

Nothing is ever that "clear cut".

You will, I'm sure, agree that the US1 band shows an abnormal response. Past empirical observations have shown that disturbances in the US bands, often US1, will be present when a circuit contains a non-linear (i.e. semi-conductive) component. The dipping of the observed SNRM whilst a telephone call is in progress (i.e. the result of applying a resistive-inductive load to the pair), along with the observation of "modem-like" audible noises within the audible (telephony) pass-band, are further suggestions.

In this particular case, I am fairly confident that the faulty joint is more semi-conductive than HR. But that may change, with time, as the fault "ripens".
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Weaver

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2018, 12:32:52 AM »

The SNRM is high, at 7dB or even 10dB [!]
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Ixel

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2018, 10:47:22 AM »

Thanks all for your replies and comments :).

Everything you have described points towards a joint that is showing slight HR or semi-conductive tendencies. The problem will be in locating the joint in question. Often such a joint can be near impossible to find . . . until it goes "hard" and fails completely.

Figured as much, how frustrating lol.

I have recorded some unusual noise, see this audio file (spectrogram of audio file, for amusement ;)), some crackling noise starts from nearer to 1 minute and occurs more near the end of the call. I will do another recording a bit later today in a quieter room as some traffic may be heard on that recording (assuming the downstream FEC errors remain continuous at around 3k to 10k+ per minute, as that's when the noise is more likely to be heard). This was done on the DECT handsets I recently bought (BT Advanced Z) but to eliminate all doubt I will use the analogue phone for another recording too. I highly doubt the noise is specific to just using the DECT handset, seeing as how the phone call impacts my upstream SNR and causes errors. Each time I made that call the upstream encountered an SNR loss of about 1 to 1.5 dB, along with around a dozen errored seconds and some FEC errors. Interestingly the ZyXeL doesn't lose sync so maybe it can handle the issue better than the DrayTek can. However, I may have to accept there's an issue but can't really report it until it gets worse.

The SNRM is high, at 7dB or even 10dB [!]

The default target SNRM is 6 dB on FTTC/VDSL2, and as I'm unfortunately connected to an ECI DSLAM I don't have much hope of a lower target SNRM being applied by DLM or even G.INP :P.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 10:55:00 AM by Ixel »
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Ixel

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2018, 11:52:58 PM »

I thought while I had a device with Broadcom chipset connected to the line that's showing an early indication of a fault that I'd try out this Broadcom DSL Diagnostics program. It's interesting.

Here's something that I noticed though: https://i.imgur.com/2dfuf6a.png

It's an SNR graph, however see the tones/bins up to just after the downstream PSD shaping ends (power cutback to co-exist with ADSLx connections). The 'min' is what happens when I use the phone, the 'max' or 'SNR' are when I don't use the phone. Tones after the downstream PSD shaping appear to be unaffected, although I can't see the upstream SNR on that graph sadly and I know it gets a small drop. I don't know if that really helps me any further in identifying where the fault might be however. The unwanted noise so far seems to become noticeable when the temperature cools down (late evening/night, overnight and early to mid morning), as do the continuous downstream FEC errors of around 3k+ per minute.

I wonder if anyone else has really explored the settings or such in the Broadcom DSL Diagnostics program. I tried to use this on the ZyXeL VMG1312-B10A but I had issues doing so, even with supervisor access, so I swapped to a spare HG612 and found it easy to enable on that.
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burakkucat

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2018, 12:40:05 AM »

I thought while I had a device with Broadcom chipset connected to the line that's showing an early indication of a fault that I'd try out this Broadcom DSL Diagnostics program. It's interesting.

Did you intend the phrase "this Broadcom DSL Diagnostics program" to be a left-clickable link? It seems to imply that I should be able to find/access it somewhere . . . but where, I know not.  :-\
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Ixel

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2018, 09:40:40 AM »

Did you intend the phrase "this Broadcom DSL Diagnostics program" to be a left-clickable link? It seems to imply that I should be able to find/access it somewhere . . . but where, I know not.  :-\

I didn't mean for it to be a clickable link, just the way I worded it as I assumed some people here were aware of such a program. I'm using version 1.43. If someone here doesn't have it then I'll post a link to it.

I'm currently waiting for downstream to return to fastpath, upstream is fastpath. I've capped the speed a bit more to hopefully help encourage it.
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burakkucat

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2018, 06:47:54 PM »

I didn't mean for it to be a clickable link, just the way I worded it as I assumed some people here were aware of such a program. I'm using version 1.43. If someone here doesn't have it then I'll post a link to it.

The grumpy old kuro neko must have been napping, for I am totally unaware of such code.

Sudden thought . . . Is it something that only runs on BGW (Billy Gates Ware)? If yes, that my be why I have no recollection of such a utility.
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Ixel

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2018, 11:51:41 PM »

The grumpy old kuro neko must have been napping, for I am totally unaware of such code.

Sudden thought . . . Is it something that only runs on BGW (Billy Gates Ware)? If yes, that my be why I have no recollection of such a utility.

Yes it's a program which runs on Windows.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=16507.0

Also DrayTek have returned my Vigor 2862 which is currently with DPD due for delivery tomorrow morning. Unfortunately the email doesn't say much (e.g. if they found a problem or actually did anything to correct my original problem), but I'm half expecting it to be returned with them unable to identify the problem even though I explained in writing how to replicate the problem and the possible memory leak that it's causing. Hopefully my prediction is wrong. Hopefully they've identified the problem and have corrected it, I'll know tomorrow.
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burakkucat

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2018, 12:04:19 AM »

Yes it's a program which runs on Windows.

https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=16507.0

Thank you.

Quote
Also DrayTek have returned my Vigor 2862 which is currently with DPD due for delivery tomorrow morning. Unfortunately the email doesn't say much (e.g. if they found a problem or actually did anything to correct my original problem), but I'm half expecting it to be returned with them unable to identify the problem even though I explained in writing how to replicate the problem and the possible memory leak that it's causing. Hopefully my prediction is wrong. Hopefully they've identified the problem and have corrected it, I'll know tomorrow.

I await your update, with interest . . .
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Ixel

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Re: Need advice, possible fault
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2018, 12:28:43 PM »

Vigor 2862 was delivered about 30 minutes ago. The serial number matches the one I had originally sent for RMA. There was a sticker on the bubble wrap which said:

Quote
Reported Problem Verified: No
Item/Component Replaced: Yes
Product/Firmware Reset/Reflashed: Yes
Tested Okay Before Return: Yes
Notes: -

I guess I'll see what happens in about three days from now. If the original problem occurs again then my only option is to do a temporary workaround to make it so the router reboots every two days and then hope at a later date that a firmware update inadvertently fixes the problem. Fingers crossed the original problem doesn't occur again. I've got it connected to the line which is showing early signs of a fault forming, replacing the ZyXeL and HG612 that I had temporarily been using on that line.
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