Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8

Author Topic: REIN REIN, go to Spain...  (Read 7841 times)

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 25879
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2018, 12:07:59 AM »

Really confused now.

Hmm . . .

Quote
There was a little shower and the SNR dropped again (there was one earlier too, but only for a few minutes).  I decided to force a resync to see what the QLN was like...  The SNR returned to normal.

The SNRM returned to the default margin. Yes, that is expected. When the assumed noise ceases your SNRM will rise by the same amount by which it was depressed when the assumed noise started.

Quote
That would imply that my line was contributing to the noise levels, but I can't see how that would work.

No.  :no:  That is incorrect logic.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2018, 01:51:11 AM »

@weaver.  Lol - Nat 5 (Scottish invention, I'm more of an O or A level person).  She'd missed 6 weeks of school this year (and this topic), so leaving the homework to the night before was not a good plan.  Homework with children is overrated - I ended up dictating the last few answers as it was way past bedtime.  When both parents are calming a child, it's too late at night.

@burakkucat: I was expecting the return to normal when the noise stopped.  I'm dubious that the noise stopped while I forced the resync as I've seen the pattern before, far too many times, with lots of CRCs for hours then it loses sync - when it comes back at the same speed CRCs are gone.  This is the first time I've forced the sync.
Logged

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2018, 01:38:39 PM »

No.  :no:  That is incorrect logic.

Yep, the logic was incorrect - but I'm trying to answer a question I have (domain knowledge is the problem).  I can see the pattern I want to query, but am having difficulties putting the correct question.

I'm also putting in old information from before I had the bridged tap removed, and before I had stats from the HG612.  I'll try again and see if I can word what I'm trying to find out.

1. When rain happens (and especially noticeable when it's snow) my normal SNR drops as if there is crosstalk, using the gif you gave to identify the closesest approximation of the effect, this causes CRCs/resyncs or did before I set an upper limit on the attainable.  Worst connection I've seen was about 22Mb/s : first attachment (minimum line in the graph)
2. If my line resyncs a few minutes after the starting event the speed/snr are as before and no more errors occur.  The picture yesterday
3. If the line recovers on it's own, it's a gradual process over the course of 30 - 40 minutes (unlike crosstalk) : Second attachment
4. It looks like I have a split pair with someone who has a bridged tap causing some noise on my line (found, but I haven't asked them to do anything yet).  This could be anything - the pairs could potentially lie beside each other for a long distance.

I can't put points 2 and 3 together (that's causing me confusion :D), as they seem to contradict each other.  Point 4 is the left field item - that's got to be so rare to make it unlikely many people will have seen it, and the effects wouldn't be well known.

So that's it - I can't think how both 2 and 3 can be true at the same time.

Attainable has varied by ~6Mb during the last 24 hours, but sync would've been maintained if I hadn't have got nosey.


Logged

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2018, 04:15:38 PM »

It's been dry for a month, except for one thunderstorm, but that's over now  ;D.

A proper Scottish shower (about 2 inches in as many minutes and then ordinary persistent rain):

Connection speed dropped by ~10Mb (I would have said banded, but the attainable is the same as actual just now), guess I'm not clear of the weather problems  :(, someone else's bridged tap can wait.


Logged

j0hn

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 2356
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2018, 08:20:25 PM »

Quote
4. It looks like I have a split pair with someone who has a bridged tap causing some noise on my line (found, but I haven't asked them to do anything yet).  This could be anything - the pairs could potentially lie beside each other for a long distance.

Rare to have a split pair.
Chances of having a split pair and that being shared with another user are extremely slim.

How you think you're detecting a bridged tap on a neighbouring line I have no idea.
You should sell that to OpenReach.
Logged
Plusnet FTTC 80/20 -  ECI now Huawei cab
retx low @ 3dB target SNRM
Zyxel VMG1312-B10A bridged with 1508 MTU + Asus RT-AC68U running Asuswrt-Merlin

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2018, 09:41:07 PM »

@j0hn. I do have a daughter who specialises in vanishingly small...  she could find a bone in calamari :) - although I'd prefer her not to have managed to hit some of the other 100 million to one things she has.

Willing, eager, for a different explanation  ;D.  QLN shows a refected noise of length 101 +/- 5m (Weaver gets 106, I get 96).  Makes sense all 8 drop wires are between about 80 and 120m.  There were 6 premises when BT buried the cable, so I doubt we have lots of spare capacity now that there's 8.  Hlog is fine, so the reflections aren't on my line.  From the notes Burakkucat gave me, nothing matched to all the symptoms...  so I combined them together in pairs.   Only split pair & bridged tap matched - although, I think it more likely that my pair lies against the other and isn't well twisted.

After that I just stuck the hg612 on the other lines to see if there was a bridged tap.  Finding an ADSL2+ line with <17Mb was also a surprise as well, given that it's 1050m to the exchange (even with the insane routing) according to BT.  Mine was >19.

So if you can think of something, I'm all ears  :D.  I'm just applying Occam's razor, and while I may not totally agree with the likelyhood - it does fit.
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 25879
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2018, 10:07:52 PM »

There are Hlog and Bit Loading plots attached to reply #53 (dated 12 June). The Hlog plot definitely shows a bridge tap, whose length can be estimated with a fair degree of precision by manipulating the raw data.

I presume that a suitable CPE was taken to the relevant neighbours home and the data was harvested.  :-\
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2018, 10:17:45 PM »

So while playing with Occam's Razor - the current fewest assumptions don't fit anymore.  Here's how QLN changed during the rain.  Attainable or SNRM have not yet recovered as they've done previously... there was a lot of rain in a very short time - although the noise reflection is dimmed too.

@burakkucat - while that's true, given the effect of rain, the combination doesn't hold true (on it's own).  Given I've had a bridge tap removed, I feel I should be calling bingo  ::).
Logged

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2018, 10:02:11 PM »

The SNRM returned to the default margin. Yes, that is expected. When the assumed noise ceases your SNRM will rise by the same amount by which it was depressed when the assumed noise started.

The speed return to the one I'd set as the maximum attainable, so I expected a lower SNRM - not the same as it was before the rain.  Doesn't make less sense than anything else that's going on :).

I'm surrendering and putting the details on Zen's forum - even a bit of rain that barely wet the ground was noticeable on the margin (only about 0.5Db though).
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 25879
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2018, 11:32:40 PM »

I have now "wandered around" with the aid of Google Street View and have found the relevant "cavern" covers. The telephone exchange was unmissable. Quite clearly the lines in question were direct exchange lines. I will agree with your description of "mad wiring".

Performing a "look-up" on the telephone numbers you have shared with me shows, interestingly, two different cabinet numbers.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2018, 12:30:10 AM »

I must have miss typed - tried again.  Street view seems old, but the unseen caverns are pretty much where the dog walker is at the exchange on opposite sides of the "road" (scarily there appears a worn path towards my line cavern on it's first pass past the exchange).  Reckon the electric goes up there too.
Logged

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2018, 10:29:10 PM »

Going to ask a really silly question - what would happen if one of these (or similar) hit some cables:

https://www.farmtechsupplies.com/product/flail-hedge-cutter-am60-60cm-wide/

there appears to be a patch or covering on the cables on the pole about hedge cutter height - I'll need to remove some hawthorn to have a look.  But that would be a much simpler explanation, if some sheaths had been stripped away...
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 25879
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2018, 11:20:31 PM »

Well I have seen the end result when the top of a road sign "got in the way". Not a pretty sight.  ::)
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

boozy

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2018, 11:36:10 PM »

I noticed that the pole wasn't vertical any more, water crossing the wires/close proximity of bared wires would seem to match all the symptoms...  you should see what happens to your drive when it's angled towards it, I have bicycle tyres on my amazon favourites (not that they are often used).  I've asked the previous person who did it what type of cutter it was, betting cheap and unprotected.  I stopped short of asking did he hit the pole and then twist some bare wires together  :-X.
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 25879
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: REIN REIN, go to Spain...
« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2018, 11:46:58 PM »

My view is, of course, historic from 2011 but, back then, the only cable climbing (or descending) a pole was on the middle one of the three. From that pole aerial cables run both ways to the first and third poles. The cable up pole two was protected (and I assume it still is so) with the usual capping which ends just below the hedge top!

You may well be onto something . . .  :)
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 8
 

anything