Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

Author Topic: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+  (Read 3745 times)

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1749
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2018, 08:19:43 PM »

Considering the contents of our BT66 on an outside wall, I'm pretty sure that whatever type of master socket I have is the least of my worries. :P

In this case, I don't think the finer points of exactly which type of modern master socket, filter and a fancy dsl cable are going to be the cause of a substantially underperforming ADSL line.
Logged

jwbjnwolf

  • Just arrived
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • Jase Wolf - Site
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2018, 08:30:13 PM »

The line has got back up to speed which is nice. I tbh don't want to mess with that upload considering I'd have to move to ADSL2+ for it to be uncapped, as if ADSL2+ isn't as stable as ADSL Max on rural lines, I definitely don't want to risk making things worse. Thanms though for all the help!
Logged

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1749
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2018, 08:50:41 PM »

You can have uncapped upstream on WBC (21CN) ADSL1 (for free).

You could have the line set to ADSL2+, then set the mode yourself on the modem if necessary. You won't know which of ADSL1/2/2+ is best for your line unless you try them.
Logged

re0

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2018, 08:59:00 PM »

The line has got back up to speed which is nice.
Good to see that it's at a healthier speed with fastpath.

... ADSL2+ isn't as stable as ADSL Max on rural lines ...
ADSL2+ isn't as stable as ADSL (known as G.DMT) or ADSL2 (known as G.DMT.bis) on longer lines. ADSL Max refers to old IPStream (backhaul) connectivity (which I do not believe you are on based on what you've said).

You can have uncapped upstream on WBC (21CN) ADSL1 (for free).

You could have the line set to ADSL2+, then set the mode yourself on the modem if necessary. You won't know which of ADSL1/2/2+ is best for your line unless you try them.
I agree with ejs. Plus, you have a lot to gain from uncapping the upstream.
Logged

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1749
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2018, 09:11:17 PM »

I think it's not really ADSL2+ itself that's worse than the others on longer lines, it's just than some of the older exchange equipment isn't very good at ADSL2+ (on any length of line). On newer types of exchange equipment, it selects ADSL2 automatically when appropriate, or it makes no difference. But people don't seem to complain about it like they do about ECI vs. Huawei FTTC cabinets.
Logged

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5424
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2018, 12:05:43 AM »

adsl2+ allocates less power per tone, even if higher tones are not used (not sure if its supposed to beef up power on lower tones if no high ones used, but thats not my experience).

Thats the reasoning I have always considered it poorer on longer lines, short lines still can get enough bitloading for good performance with the reduced power so isnt a problem on those lines.

I see it fairly consistently when people try adsl2+ on long lines it performs worse than adsl2.

Given that modems will always try adsl2+ first even on high loop loss, I think locking long lines down to adsl1 at the dslam is sound.

Locking down to adsl2+adsl1 is possibly better, but BT with their rigid profiles probably dont have such a profile, so the next best thing is just for an ISP to order the adsl1 product.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 12:09:02 AM by Chrysalis »
Logged
Sky Fiber Pro - Billion 8800NL bridge & PFSense BOX running PFSense 2.4 - ECI Cab - LINE STATISTICS CLICK HERE

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1749
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2018, 07:19:46 AM »

I think the power levels and limits per tone are exactly the same in the ADSL2 and ADSL2+ specifications.
Logged

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5424
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2018, 05:02:00 PM »

Well I posted my observations on tbb a while back, someone came back and confirmed the power per tone is lower, but they also said its supposed to be increased if less tones are used.

On ukonline my adsl2 sync was lower than adsl1 but only by a small amount a couple of hundred kbit.  On adsl2+ it was about 1.5mbit lower, a much larger amount.
Logged
Sky Fiber Pro - Billion 8800NL bridge & PFSense BOX running PFSense 2.4 - ECI Cab - LINE STATISTICS CLICK HERE

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1749
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2018, 05:41:23 PM »

Well, less speed achieved would generally be due to less signal or more noise. What I'm saying is, that if it is indeed that on ADSL2+ you get lower power on some tones, that will be because the equipment in the exchange is pretty poor at doing ADSL2+, not because of any fundamental difference between the ADSL2+ and ADSL2 technical recommendations.
Logged

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5424
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2018, 06:47:07 PM »

every tone was weaker the hit was equal across the board, the line wasnt good enough to use a single adsl2+ tone so it was the same tones as adsl1/adsl2, meaning any noise would apply to all 3 modes.

I am not saying you wrong, as I am no expert, but just I can understand why an isp would not allow adsl2+ on long lines to be synchronised. 1.5mbit on my line was about 25% of the line capacity so significant.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 06:49:31 PM by Chrysalis »
Logged
Sky Fiber Pro - Billion 8800NL bridge & PFSense BOX running PFSense 2.4 - ECI Cab - LINE STATISTICS CLICK HERE

jwbjnwolf

  • Just arrived
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • Jase Wolf - Site
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2018, 07:37:58 PM »

Earlier had a fault in the area, one of the cabinets was apparently causing the network for everyone connected to the exchange to go down.

They fixed the fault about an hour ago from writing and the connection is much stronger again than it was before which is fantastic, back to 4mbit.

But even though we were speaking to someone from a Swansea call centre, not an Indian one, so at least he could understand... He insisted on that my setup is the problem because I don't use their s###hub, and that they need that to just simply be able to see if there's a damn fault on the line.

I just asked him how the heck do other ISPs, such as EE with their Brightbox, which is setup like a 3rd party router and isn't s### like the s###hub, see if there's faults on the line when you don't use their s###?

I just told him everything is set up right on my end, and I am happy to go through the settings with you if you want to. He just put me on hold and came back to state exactly what I asked originally. Yes there's a fault in the area.

Going to damn well keep that in mind to ask if there's a fault "in the area" not "on the line". Hopefully that'll cut us past the initial insistance on using the s###hub.

Anyway, that part is sorted, and I can definitely say in the few weeks that I've used the modem and my Netgear router instead of the s###hub, the issues I was consistantly having with the s###hub due to it's stupid locked down DNS etc, I just don't get now.

On the topic of regarding that upload cap at 448Kbit. How the heck do I get BT to actually own up that there is a cap? As the guy on the phone was just denying that there is any cap when I was specifically stating that my line is capable of uploading at 1Mbit, but is capped at 448kbit, which as mentioned, is a very known obvious cap.

If anyone can give their trick on getting it through to them, that would be great!
Logged

re0

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2018, 02:01:51 AM »

In reference to your example, EE's BrightBox is not a third-party modem/router if used in conjunction with EE broadband (since they provided it). Though if you use something that is not provided by the ISP then it would classify as third party. Though this wouldn't stop them running line tests at all.

I imagine that it is not unusual for support at ISPs to question user setups (since they are only trained to do so as customer equipment can sometimes be the problem), especially in the case when ISP provides hardware as it will conform to the Openreach standards and work on their network. Granted, most modern routers will support virtually every ISP out of the box but they may not configure with optimal settings for the ISP and, in the case where it is a modem-router combo, it may not conform to Openreach standards (so when they do line tests they may ask you to use their provided hardware so they can be sure of the results because of conformity and it may help cover your back if your hardware is actually at fault).

Don't just take my word for it because I do not know, but maybe BT use TR-069 to access customer equipment for details. Perhaps someone could confirm whether that is something that they use?

I think we've already established that the line is on 21CN connectivity, so it is certainly not ADSL Max at least. There is no reason to why ADSL2/2+ should not be possible on BT's 21CN connectivity, and even on ADSL (G.DMT) the upstream could be over twice the rate. The DSLAM (the hardware in the exchange, or at least that is the case for ADSL variants) is preventing you from using anything but ADSL, even though you are trying to force it.

I don't have any magic words for you, but I think you need to insist that it is capped and restricted to ADSL (as opposed to ADSL2/2+).

Just on a side note, as far as I know, there is only one big ISP that disallows the usage of third-party hardware as specified in their terms and that is Sky (maybe NowTV also, but I cannot remember). There are a few more complexities to this but I won't go into them since it does not have too much relevance here.
Logged

jwbjnwolf

  • Just arrived
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • Jase Wolf - Site
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2018, 02:37:11 AM »

I know the EE Brightbox obviously isn't 3rd party when you're on EE, but what I meant by that as an example..
It's very much like a typical 3rd party router. It requires you to set it up in pretty much the same ways, it is advanced and not locked down, and it sure as heck does not communicate with EE in the ways that the Smarthub does with BT. Also, at least in the case of the first gen Brightbox, it could be unlocked/modded to work on other ISPs.

So yea I understand it's still the ISP's, so therefore not 3rd party. Though in the way the BT guy was insisting I need the hub for them to just check the line.. if that was the case, then EE and other ISPs with routers that are just like the Brightbox and 3rd party routers, they would definitely be doing some crazy black magic to troubleshoot connections when they don't have the control over the routers like BT has with the hubs. Or I wonder if the magic  is that most of their textbook methods on setting up connections is actually the just the same on their routers as you do with 3rd party routers.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 02:39:15 AM by jwbjnwolf »
Logged

tickmike

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 3179
  • Yes Another Penguin !. :)
    • Free Download from.
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2018, 10:29:03 PM »


On the topic of regarding that upload cap at 448Kbit. How the heck do I get BT to actually own up that there is a cap? As the guy on the phone was just denying that there is any cap when I was specifically stating that my line is capable of uploading at 1Mbit, but is capped at 448kbit, which as mentioned, is a very known obvious cap.

If anyone can give their trick on getting it through to them, that would be great!

 It looks like your ISP has you on maxdsl that has a limitation of 448 for the upstream.  Max premium (business) should sync at up to 832 upstream.
Logged
I RECOMMEND TRYING PCLinuxOS (www.pclinuxos.com) .
I have a set of 8 fixed IP's From my Eclipse isp.
BT ADSL2 (G992.3) line>HG612 set as a Modem, Bridge, WAN not Bound to LAN1 or 2 >Smoothwall (Hardware Firewall and routing) > Ethernet LAN, DMZ,WiFI LAN and Spare LAN .
DSLstats LAN2  linked Ethernet

re0

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 299
Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2018, 11:01:27 PM »

It looks like your ISP has you on maxdsl that has a limitation of 448 for the upstream.  Max premium (business) should sync at up to 832 upstream.

ADSL Max on 21CN product?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4