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Author Topic: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+  (Read 3186 times)

Chrysalis

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2018, 07:23:43 PM »

I would not worry about it, adsl2+ will very likely perform worse than adsl1 on this line.  Which leaves plain adsl2, since there is no SRA been used, adsl1 is probably the best mode for compatibility.
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jwbjnwolf

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2018, 07:25:58 PM »

The main thing I loved when it went up to 4.5mbit, VoIP on Discord was bareable. On 3.5mbit, it just doesn't work. But 480p video, as long as that works, and general browsing works, I'm alright with. At least this isn't as bad as when we first got online back in Oct 2010 and had a faulty router only giving 0.5mbit download when we were supposed to be getting 3.5mbit which we did get as soon as it got replaced lol.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 07:28:58 PM by jwbjnwolf »
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re0

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2018, 09:09:55 PM »

Here's the result I got from that which is showing the upstream. So this definitely is weird.
Well, from that information, it looks to be a 21CN connection then. So no 20CN ADSL Max. The figures reported by the speedtest are certainly wrong, but could be because of your web browser.

It's quite possible to be on 21CN, with your line set to ADSL1 only. Plusnet have (or had) a policy of putting long lines, or lines with low estimates, on ADSL1, out of fear that ADSL2+ might be worse on such long lines.

Perhaps someone, at some point, set your line to ADSL1 and set the capped 448k upstream, presumably in an attempt to make your line more stable.
Has BT also had this policy? Since the OP's ISP is BT. I still think the OP should contact BT and ask for the upstream cap to removed in any case (as it seems to exist, along with being ADSL1 only), since the line is certainly capable (from a distance perspective) to get somewhere between 800-1100 Kbps upstream.

At these speeds, there won't be much difference between ADSL1 and ADSL2/2+ anyway.
I would not worry about it, adsl2+ will very likely perform worse than adsl1 on this line.  Which leaves plain adsl2, since there is no SRA been used, adsl1 is probably the best mode for compatibility.
I certainly would agree with you both, since the line is fairly attenuated by the distance to likely be able allocate frequencies above the range of G.DMT (and even if it could, it probably wouldn't be stable). Though, I was a bit perplexed to how the upstream was limited and it was definitely worth investigating it to be sure.

The main thing I loved when it went up to 4.5mbit, VoIP on Discord was bareable. On 3.5mbit, it just doesn't work. But 480p video, as long as that works, and general browsing works, I'm alright with.
I think that the lack of decent upstream will cause some issues with certain services more than your downstream speed. This may be the biggest issue.

Other than that, I have noticed that your SNRM seems to be set at 15 dB interleaved, which could either be resulting from a long line with frequencies impacted by interference and/or because of bad wiring or filtering. You might want to look at this page (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm) to check your wiring and filtering and see if you can improve it further if you are bothered by it. At 6 dB, if the line can support it, you could realistically see around 3500-4000 Kbps downstream.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 10:17:52 PM by re0 »
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jwbjnwolf

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2018, 09:41:12 PM »

Here's an updated screenshot showing the current line stats.

The speed has gone up now and the db has gone down a bit. Though the errors have mounted up big.

Regarding the line, we had OpenReach move the master socket around April or so last year upstairs into my room where my desk is, rather than being down on the floor by the front door inside a cupboard at that too it was!

So the socket is an OpenReach one now, where it used to be a crazy old one due to that this is a 1930s house.

Before I treat this as any issues on the part of the line, would it be anything do with if you use one of the other of the LLC or VCMux options? I switched it earlier as like said, to LLC from VCMux. It seems to work no different with either option, but is that possibly by being on LLC option that am having errors?
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burakkucat

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2018, 09:58:28 PM »

Please do not take any notice of the values reported under the Statistics tab of the HG612 GUI. The data is reported incorrectly.

You need to access the HG612 via telnet or ssh and use the output returned by an invocation of --

xdslcmd info --stats
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re0

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2018, 10:01:24 PM »

The speed has gone up now and the db has gone down a bit. Though the errors have mounted up big.
Perhaps the SNR drop is just because of the normal variation of background interference conditions since, at least on longer lines, it is not exactly unheard of for the SNR to swing by as much as around 3 dB between day and night. As for the errors, the CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check) counter is most concerning as these count towards ES (Errored Seconds) that ultimately determine how the DLM treats your line. FEC (Forward Error Correction) is mostly no concern, as any number in the counter in relation to this just means how many have been corrected.

You can read more regarding error correction and detection in relation to xDSL here: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/error_correction.htm

Before I treat this as any issues on the part of the line, would it be anything do with if you use one of the other of the LLC or VCMux options? I switched it earlier as like said, to LLC from VCMux. It seems to work no different with either option, but is that possibly by being on LLC option that am having errors?
Errors that you can see in the statistics are nothing to do with the encapsulation, but rather they just occur during data transmission over the line (the line is always transmitting data at full sync speed, regardless of whether the end user is actually transferring anything).

Please do not take any notice of the values reported under the Statistics tab of the HG612 GUI. The data is reported incorrectly.

You need to access the HG612 via telnet or ssh and use the output returned by an invocation of --

xdslcmd info --stats
Thanks for posting this, I was not aware of the incorrect data reporting on the HG612 GUI having not used one for a long time.  :)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 10:06:09 PM by re0 »
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jwbjnwolf

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2018, 10:16:20 PM »

Here's the stats from telnet.
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re0

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2018, 11:06:31 PM »

Those FECs look a bit excessive, so perhaps it was caused by a burst of errors rather than something that has been consistently occurring? Judging by the high CRC count and low ES count, that is probably the case. Even so, the average FEC rate is around 500 per minute (which seems quite a lot) over the total link time.

If you want to monitor your stats you could setup something like HG612 Modem Stats (if on Windows) (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/hg612stats.htm) or DSLstats (if on Windows or Linux - including Raspberry Pi) (http://dslstats.me.uk/). Preferably, any of the aforementioned applications should run 24/7 uninterrupted (so on a machine that is on all the time).

What filter are you currently using? You could benefit from trying a different filter and cable, just to see if it makes any significant difference. MOST filters are OK and will do a decent job, but some that are supplied with are modems are absolute garbage. From past experience, some of the best filters I have used are:
  • ADSL Nation XF-1e (probably one of the best, gets a better downstream speed than most; I think it had a slightly higher error rate but within margin of error)
  • MK3 filter (integrates with NTE5/A socket so it's very flush and means no "danglies" from your socket; good speeds and stability)
  • D-Link DSL-35MF (generally good all round)
  • Filters that have been historically provided with Plusnet and BT modem/routers (I cannot vouch for them all since I have only owned so many, but GENERALLY speaking they have been pretty good)

I can appreciate that you may not be bothered too much since you are at least getting something and it is working as you need. :) Though I certainly think you should bring up the issue discussed in this topic with your ISP regarding your line being stuck in ADSL1 with capping since it is severely restricting your upstream.

Edited to include MK3 filter.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 10:24:52 AM by re0 »
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jwbjnwolf

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2018, 12:02:00 AM »

Currently using the ADSL filter that was provided with the Smarthub. I think the ADSL/VDSL shared filter I used before I switched it again, was the one that used with the EE Brightbox 2 on VDSL. Would be nice if the filters that come with ISP routers at least had a label on them to state the ISP name so you can distinguish them. I'm not using any that came with modems though.

DSLstats, I'll have to get that running in Wine on macOS considering my Mac Mini I keep on 24/7.

Will definitely contact BT about that regarding the upload. As I am forever noticing that my mobile data, even at a slower download speed, alwaus feels so much faster than the ADSL, which is all because the upload is peaking at about just as fast as the download.

Lets hope that the next time I call will be someone more useful than the last few.

But regardless, I am glad to be away from being forced to use my R9000 router in AP mode connected to the Smarthub which controlled the DHCP.  BT making the Smarthub constantly reboot every time it lost connection, kicking off everything on the LAN. That was just so infuriating.

But now the R9000 is in Router mode with the Hg612 as the modem, I do not even need the modem just to use the local network, and I definitely am not going to be kicked off if the modem loses connection.

Been just so lucky the past year that all the times the Smarthub has been playing up, was when I wasn't transferring data to/from the HDDs networked via the R9000, which I do a lot when video/photo editing. Not that I would of lost anything as such, as I save stuff locally or don't dare do cut and paste (well after a couple hard lessons lmao), until it's successful, then get rid of local versions.. But still, damn annoying when you need to copy something large again because the first time messed up.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 12:08:01 AM by jwbjnwolf »
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burakkucat

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2018, 12:46:40 AM »

With regards to filters, I always recommend using a centralised filter on the NTE5 and run a data-extension to where ever the modem is to be situated. I would prefer an NTE5/A plus the Mk 3 SSFP (service specific face-plate i.e. a centralised filter) over the latest NTE5C plus Mk 4 SSFP (which is, basically, cheap tat and is best avoided).

Ideally the modem should be located adjacent to the NTE5 + SSFP so that the extremely weak incoming xDSL signal is converted to Ethernet frames at the earliest opportunity. In this usage case, the data-extension would actually be the Ethernet link between the modem and the router.
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re0

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2018, 08:59:14 AM »

I would prefer an NTE5/A plus the Mk 3 SSFP (service specific face-plate i.e. a centralised filter) over the latest NTE5C plus Mk 4 SSFP (which is, basically, cheap tat and is best avoided).

I've heard that the MK4 is absolute garbage compared to the MK3 filter. Fortunately, engineers don't usually carry or install the MK4 when doing new installs or socket changes where the NTE5C is involved due to "costs" (or at least what an engineer has told me). Though I don't have any problems with the NTE5C (not like I had much choice at install).
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ejs

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2018, 06:51:15 PM »

I've heard that the MK4 is absolute garbage compared to the MK3 filter.

Where? I thought it was exactly the same thing, just in a different physical shape to fit the NTE5C.
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re0

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2018, 04:37:22 AM »

I can't remember every source for places I've visited in the past, but just doing a quick Google pulled up http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/fibre/4532655-new-mk4-faceplate.html?fpart=all, which strikes me as one of the places I probably visited previously when I was considering buying the MK4 filter to use in conjunction with the new socket.

Now, I wish not to insinuate that the above source is an accurate represntation of the full spectrum of users and usage scenarios considering the limited samples with concise information (there aren't really any), but rather just to back up my claim that I have "heard" it is worse.

Ignoring the filtering for the moment, the new socket itself is certainly different from the previous NTE5/A as those previous iterations had components soldered to a PCB while the NTE5C has the components literally just mounted (and not soldered) to what seems like sheets of metal which are themselves just clipped onto the plastic. I can't say at what detriment to performance, but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD67a-ZC7VY may be worth a watch if you're interested.

I do not necessarily think the filtering is worlds different from the MK3, but rather the PCB and layout of components on the MK4 is looking different. Though perhaps there is an inclusion of cheaper components? Maybe someone could shed some light on this.
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tubaman

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2018, 08:31:53 AM »

Having just looked at the close-up photos of an NTE5C at http://www.davefrydoes.co.uk/install-an-new-style-nte5c-bt-openreach-etc-telephone-master-socket-replacing-nte5a/ I must say I'm in shock at the cheapness of the build quality. :no:
I'd heard they were bad, but I didn't realise how bad!
They are probably fine when new, but I suspect Openreach may regret using these when the faults start rolling in in the years to come.
 :)
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re0

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Re: HG612 using G.DMT returning ADSL Max speeds rather than ADSL2+
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2018, 09:53:00 AM »

One thing I overlooked when I originally wrote my comment is that potentially the MK4 has a bad reputation not necessarily because it is inferior to the MK3, but rather because the NTE5C is of a worse quality compared to NTE5/A. Perhaps the MK4 has the approximate level of filtering and performance of the MK3, but in conjunction with the NTE5C (the only socket it will fit) it performs worse than the MK3 combined with NTE5/A? Just a thought, of course.
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