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Author Topic: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband  (Read 46190 times)

Weaver

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #330 on: August 21, 2020, 10:43:43 AM »

How did we ever get into this state in the first place ? What happened- did BT ‘forget’ to write up the requirements spec properly and just bought up some random piece of junk from ECI? Was it a surprise when BT got the garbage from ECI?

(mods - I think this is OTT possibly; if you agree could/should we split this off into a new thread?)
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Dave2150

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #331 on: August 21, 2020, 11:36:54 AM »

Sigh. Hope whoever was responsible for the compliance, testing and QA for the DSLAMS at BT Openreach is fired over this mess, though in this day and age they probably just got a promotion.

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Chrysalis

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #332 on: August 21, 2020, 10:24:29 PM »

How did we ever get into this state in the first place ? What happened- did BT ‘forget’ to write up the requirements spec properly and just bought up some random piece of junk from ECI? Was it a surprise when BT got the garbage from ECI?

(mods - I think this is OTT possibly; if you agree could/should we split this off into a new thread?)

I remember saying I had never heard of ECI as a company before they were mentioned as a supplier to openreach VDSL.

Its an isreal based company which america has political ties to, there is the slandering of hauwei who make equipment that works.  (not by openreach of course but politically by america), and one does wonder if political intervention played a part in ECI getting the contract or if it was just incompetence from openreach.

The issue that baffles me is that clearly openreach want g.inp, there is a business case as again and again they keep running trials.  There must be a point where its more sensible to just swap out the cabinets to equipment they know that works.

Also they have kind of dug their own grave on this, there should have been a list of whitelisted modems deemed to be compliant, and only those modems should have been allowed to be active on the vdsl network, there is a reason other telco's whitelist equipment (not always security).  I expect the reason they not correcting this is because neither openreach or the CPs want to cover the cost as it would involve replacing modem's in people's homes.

The rolling out of M41's instead of V41's also showed a lack of foresight.  Although in regards to g.inp its unknown if the V41's would have any benefit.

Meanwhile cityfibre have started digging streets in my city, so I think its very possible I will end up never having g.inp enabled in my use of vdsl.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 10:35:41 PM by Chrysalis »
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Dave2150

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #333 on: August 22, 2020, 02:43:22 PM »

I remember saying I had never heard of ECI as a company before they were mentioned as a supplier to openreach VDSL.

Its an isreal based company which america has political ties to, there is the slandering of hauwei who make equipment that works.  (not by openreach of course but politically by america), and one does wonder if political intervention played a part in ECI getting the contract or if it was just incompetence from openreach.

The issue that baffles me is that clearly openreach want g.inp, there is a business case as again and again they keep running trials.  There must be a point where its more sensible to just swap out the cabinets to equipment they know that works.

Also they have kind of dug their own grave on this, there should have been a list of whitelisted modems deemed to be compliant, and only those modems should have been allowed to be active on the vdsl network, there is a reason other telco's whitelist equipment (not always security).  I expect the reason they not correcting this is because neither openreach or the CPs want to cover the cost as it would involve replacing modem's in people's homes.

The rolling out of M41's instead of V41's also showed a lack of foresight.  Although in regards to g.inp its unknown if the V41's would have any benefit.

Meanwhile cityfibre have started digging streets in my city, so I think its very possible I will end up never having g.inp enabled in my use of vdsl.

I believe it's standard practice to always adopt two separate vendors for such critical components of the networks. Using one DSLAM/line card vendor throughout the UK would not be wise, as that vendor would have powerful leverage over pricing, supply etc. Tbh I  wouldn't want a world where we use Chinese technology exclusively for our communications network, current political issues aside.

IMO the issue lies completely with the person/team who were evaluating the competing DSLAM vendors prior to their approval. Surely one step of the testing would be to turn on and test all the features they were planning to implement, G.INP included? How did the ECI cabinet get the green light to be approved? Something very fishy here.

Nokia seem like a competent vendor with a good track record, I wonder if their DSLAM's work properly with G.INP? I know they offer vectoring technologies.



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j0hn

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #334 on: August 22, 2020, 03:44:31 PM »

In their defence OpenReach signed up ECI when VDSL2 was a very new technology.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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Dave2150

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #335 on: August 22, 2020, 04:39:06 PM »

In their defence OpenReach signed up ECI when VDSL2 was a very new technology.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

G.INP was approved in 2010. The vast majority of ECI cabinets were installed after this date, so I disagree with your comment about hindsight. Incompetence is a more appropriate term.

The team testing the ECI cabinets made a huge lapse of judgement, by not testing that G.INP worked properly on the ECI M41 DSLAMs, before installing so many of them.

VDSL2 was approved in early 2006, so I also disagree with your comment that VDSL2 was a new technology at that point.

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j0hn

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #336 on: August 22, 2020, 06:57:14 PM »

G.INP wasn't active on the Huawei cabinets when they were installed either.

Just because G.INP was approved in 2010 that doesn't magically mean everything will work with it.

It would have been impossible for OpenReach to test G.INP on the ECI DSLAM's prior to then picking them as a Vendor.
Every modem doesn't magically get G.INP the day it's approved.

The OpenReach modems didn't even support G.INP for a few years.

I think OpenReach made a mess of the ECI estate.
Once VDSL2 matured and the G.INP issues and the lack of system wide Vectoring was apparent OpenReach should have swapped the M41s for V41s like other Telecom did.

The issues with G.INP could not be predicted.
OpenReach wouldn't have been able to test it when picking the Vendor.
It wasn't even seen in the network till 2015.
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kitz

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #337 on: August 22, 2020, 07:30:43 PM »

I think its fair to say that Openreach will have been placing orders for ECI cabinets before system based vectoring became a thing.   ECI were actually the first manufacturer to make system based vectored DSLAMS in 2012 - From memory they was first trialled in some South/Latin American country in 2012.  By this time Openreach were already installing the M41's in the UK.
 
The timing is rather unfortunate as ECI had a really good reputation in the likes of Germany and France when Openreach commenced rollout.  ECI was favoured by Deutsche Telekom & France Telecom where they were used extensively. I remember someone saying back in 2012/2013 that the ECI DSLAMS at the time were considered superior to the Huaweis.   

ECI's failure perhaps was the lack of options for modular upgrades... in part due to lack of space on the backplane. Ironically the DSLAM small size is one of the factors which originally made it popular.   That said, whilst the Huawei MA5616 is upgradable it does mean replacing practically every part.   

Bearing in mind that BT/Openreach never rely on just one manufacturer, then back in ~2011 ECI probably was a good choice at the time

>> The rolling out of M41's instead of V41's also showed a lack of foresight.

Fact is that Openreach will have already placed orders for FTTC DSLAM rollout before the V41's became commercially available. As I said above - bad timing. 

iirc, early versions of G.998.4 (re-tx) were downstream only and whilst technologies may have been approved at certain dates, it doesn't mean to say that manufacturers were actually making them available on their chipsets at that time.  Same as with vectoring, the theory of system based vectoring was ITU approved before any DSLAM manufacturer started making it available for roll-out in the wild.

>> G.INP was approved in 2010.

It can take a few years after invention before such things become available. Manufacturers tend to wait until the ITU specifications are set before they start to manufacture equipment to be able to meet those requirements.   So just because the theory and specifications were there, doesn't mean to say that such equipment is actually commercially available.   Same on the retail side, heck - look how long it took even after FTTC rollout before you could purchase a VDSL2 modem/router. 


---------

By the sounds of it, it seems like the recent failure is down to one particular ISP's CPE being incompatible with the ECI DSLAMs.   Deja vu.  :'(
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 07:46:09 PM by kitz »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #338 on: August 22, 2020, 09:42:38 PM »

I understand what you saying kitz, but the V41 was probably at least in the development stage, and a major customer such as BT likely would have been informed of that, and I would be surprised if no option was available to switch before they finished deployment or post deployment as j0hn suggested,   We will never know of course, but to me this seems a complete mess.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 09:53:58 PM by Chrysalis »
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kitz

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #339 on: August 22, 2020, 11:34:24 PM »

Quote
and I would be surprised if no option was available to switch before they finished deployment or post deployment as j0hn suggested,

I 'think' there may have been something available circa 2015/16 to upgrade to V41's at a discounted price...  or at least that's what DT appeared to do but they appeared more interested in the advances for system based vectoring rather than g.inp.  Vectoring has far more benefits than g.inp for the SP and consumer.

Openreach have never really seemed much interested in vectoring and its only on the BDUK cabs. 
When I looked at the amount of work involved in upgrading the Huawei MA5616, its probably easier (quicker) to swap out ECI M41s for a V41 because of the number of parts involved.  Although it's easier to upgrade the Huawei MA5603s they'd still need to swap out more modules than you'd first think.  Much easier to install from new although Openreach don't even seem to have gone down this route on those cabs which now have both an ECI and Huawei.   

Perhaps they were hoping they could software patch the ECI's ?  Who knows :( 
This latest news is a major blow if its one of the larger ISPs' CPEs and could affect their future proposals for ever getting g.inp working on the ECI cabs. :'(

Openreach seems to be putting in all efforts now to rolling out FTTH/FTTP.  Openreach & Lightsource have been very busy in this area despite covid, but there are so many more exchanges to do and I'm sure many more difficult locations.   :/
The numpties disturbing their work hasn't helped either.  :rant:  I can't believe the number of covidiots in this town who think the work being done is to do with 5G.   I had a go at one of them several weeks back telling him to pack his HomeHub back in the box as it was beaming out much higher frequencies around his home 24/7. (5 - 5.8GHz  v  3.4 - 3.6 GHz)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #340 on: August 23, 2020, 04:17:12 AM »

Yep lets hope its only a small number number of units.
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skyeci

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #341 on: August 23, 2020, 08:59:20 AM »

can't believe we are still talking about this given the last trial I was on was in 2016....

Its a shame Openreach wont allow the ISP's taking part to put forward their end user lines that have suitable modems and stats as you would like to think it would be of use and more than happy to be on the trial. I have  been disappointed with Zen's poor response even though they are I assume still on the trial. They just reply with a stock response offering no option to get in on the trial even though I made contact right at the beginning of it.

This guy's line has had eci g.inp for months and seems just fine... Just hope its not another 4 years till its resolved if ever, probably be on fttp by then...
http://syn.gwise.uk:3949/linestats/
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Alex Atkin UK

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #342 on: August 23, 2020, 09:27:51 PM »

How else would you expect Zen to respond if they aren't being given any option to submit lines?

It was made pretty clear that the initial Plusnet offer was unique due to the close relationship they have to BT and was very much a limited time offer.  No other ISP has that liberty and even Plusnet cannot submit new lines now.

Also the nature of it being trial, they likely wanted a completely random sample.  If all they got were people whose equipment is known to work, it wouldn't have identified that a problem still remains.
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kitz

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #343 on: August 24, 2020, 12:15:09 AM »

Quote
It was made pretty clear that the initial Plusnet offer was unique due to the close relationship they have to BT and was very much a limited time offer.

Please don't start false rumours.  Plusnet has no special relationship with Openreach.  Other ISP's could have taken up that offer too if they had submitted before the cut off date.
I've tried to clarify several times on this forum over the past few months what the options were.  Its been mentioned both in this thread and the other.
I don't see how I can make it any clearer what the standard procedure for most Openreach trials is.  Although I didn't see the invitation for this particular trial, I have seen plenty of others to know they all roughly follow a similar format.

This isn't an area based trial, but ISP opt in. 

I am assuming [based on previous Openreach trials] that the ISP originally had 2 methods of opting in:
1) Offering all of their lines to be part of the trial or
2) Offering a limited number of lines.


Method 1.
Openreach randomly selects approx 50% of lines to be actively on the trial whilst the other 50% are used as a baseline comparison.
At the beginning of the trial, Openreach will usually advise the ISP a list of all the lines actively selected and the ISP has a few days to withdraw any particular lines from the list that they don't wish participating in the trial.

Method 2.
This is usually reserved for smaller trials or if the ISP wants to actively monitor the effects of the trial more closely. 
It is usually only staff lines which are submitted using this method.    I suspect this may be the method Bob Pullen used and it will be why he couldn't submit any more lines after the cut off date and why he was interested in the results of those who were put on the trial by asking them to post in the thread.

We did hear from a fairly reputable source that Openreach did at one point suspend any new lines being added to the trial.  However bearing in mind that we've since seen at least one more ISP go on the trial, IMO it's more likely that they are not accepting any more submissions via method 2 - which did have a hard cut-off date anyhow.
In that case it will be true what the respective ISPs are saying in that they do not have any choice which lines get G.INP activated and which don't.

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j0hn

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Re: Openreach UK Trial Finally Brings G.INP to ECI FTTC Broadband
« Reply #344 on: August 24, 2020, 12:17:00 AM »

How else would you expect Zen to respond if they aren't being given any option to submit lines?

He requested it from Zen during the opt in period.
I think he's right to be disappointed in them.
Any ISP had the ability to submit lines.

Zen didn't seem to know their a*** from their elbow during this time, giving different responses to different users who requested their lines be put on the trial.

Quite a disappointing response from AAISP also who like Zen have lines in the trial now but refused to engage with customers during the only period where individual lines could be put forward.

Seems the budget ISP Plusnet (only thanks to Bob Pullen participating in the forums) was the only ISP to take up the offer.
Part of the reason people pick Zen and AAISP is for the better customer service. They missed the boat on this.
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