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Author Topic: Downstream Rate Drop  (Read 7093 times)

Black Sheep

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2018, 08:57:41 PM »

I suppose the OR Engineer could do one of those pair swaps to remove possible crosstalk for a short period, until a new customer come online then crosstalk on to that new pair.

Not something that is in our remit, I'm afraid NS.

I'm sure you can appreciate how this could turn into a never-ending story ....... cue the music.  ;) :)
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kitz

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2018, 09:01:49 PM »

Quote
Could this simply be because of Interleaving?

No - your line isn't Interleaved as such.  Your line has G.INP.    Traditional Interleaving causes Delay.  Your Delay is 0 - so no additional latency which is associated with Interleaving.
INP 50 is G.INP

INP 3 - 4.5 uses Interleaving with Delay.   
Whilst G.INP does use a tiny bit of Interleaving, its not using it with RS encoding to add overheads.  I was able to clearly see from the first set of stats that you do not have traditional Interleaving applied for the reasons explained by ejs, because the actual sync and max sync were similar figures.

As far a the DLM is concerned it doesnt call this Interleaving in your DLM line profile and class it as retransmission.

Quote
Could the Interleaving be enabled because of some issue at the Cabinet or Exchange?

No.   
Aside from the fact that you have G.INP and not Interleaving..  its applied on individual line characteristics.

Your line is on the standard profile.  A DLM reset wont make things better..  it will make things worse, because you will then actually go into a period of having old style Interleaving applied.

Quote
I am just trying to find out the reason why my line was capable of an Attainable Rate of 93504~ Kbps but is now (supposedly) only capable of 68376~ Kbps and seemingly keeps degrading.

Unless there is a physical line fault - which would show other symptoms..  then it is likely to be crosstalk.
Mine started at ~110 Mbps..  its now only capable of 72Mbps or ~67Mbps when interleaved.   

Your line will have several crosstalkers to varying extents, we only tend to notice the large ones.   Although rarer, there's been a couple of people on this forum who have taken >20Mbps in a single hit from one disturber.  :'(
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kitz

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2018, 09:14:06 PM »

What does the BTw checker say that it estimates your linespeed should be?
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burakkucat

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2018, 09:27:51 PM »

I've taken a look at the snapshot graphs, shown earlier.

The Hlog plot is essentially perfect. (If konrado5 see this, I would expect him to download a copy for future reference.)

The QLN plot shows the characteristic DSPBO and reading across, left to right (low to high frequencies), appears to show the effect of some cross-talk.

That said, I would jealously guard the pair and would not wish for a pair-swap. In terms of metallic pathways, the one we are looking at is nearly as good as one can get.
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konrado5

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2018, 10:39:16 PM »

b4z: Could you attach your Hlog per tones 0-511 ? I'd like to save this perfect Hlog for future reference.
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b4z

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2018, 11:12:03 PM »

I really appreciate everyones replies.
(If i had realised Vodafone had been lieing and fobbing me off, i would not have raised an issue with Openreach.)

Here is a speedtest from December 2017
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/1512665404646700355
Here is a speedtest from January 2018
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/1514810011590397255
And here is a speedtest from March 2018
https://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest/1521541809889097655

So it seems i have lost 10 Meg~ during that 2-3 month period.

Can anything be done the crosstalk interference that you guys propose is causing this?

---------------------
My thought process was fairly simple: my internet connection seems to be getting progressively slower, and it used to be capable of a lot more (80000 kbps~ solid sync rate and much higher attainable rate). So i wanted to know why, then i tried to do some reading on it, from this website and others, and my guess about it being DLM or Interleaving was incorrect, i theorised that it might be incorrectly adjusting my line unnecessarily aggressively, but clearly i didn't understand well enough.

Before i had this connection, i spent quite a bit of time reading this website and forum trying to absorb everything i needed to optimise the connection. The Cabinet is 150metres away, and is Huawei. The wire from the telephone pole (which is 5metres outside my house) was brand newly installed in 2016. I bought and flashed an HG612. The master socket was a new NTE5A MK3 socket the Engineer to put in. And the cable from the master socket to the modem is a very short, high quality, twisted pair cable as is advised, and is as clear as possible of any electrical interference. The reason i say all this is because I tried to do everything in my power to make sure the connection would be good. And so now i am just disappointed that the speed seems to keep dropping.
-----------------------

I have attached the BTw checker as kitz requested.

And here is the Hlog that konrado5/burakkucat requested.

Code: [Select]
xdslcmd info --Hlog
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status: 0
Max: Upstream rate = 31517 Kbps, Downstream rate = 68400 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 20000 Kbps, Downstream rate = 68872 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Tone number      Hlog
   0 -96.0000
   1 -96.0000
   2 -96.0000
   3 -96.0000
   4 -96.0000
   5 -96.0000
   6 -96.0000
   7 -96.2500
   8 -7.2500
   9 -7.2500
   10 -7.2500
   11 -7.2500
   12 -7.2500
   13 -7.2500
   14 -7.2500
   15 -7.2500
   16 -3.7500
   17 -3.7500
   18 -3.7500
   19 -3.7500
   20 -3.7500
   21 -3.7500
   22 -3.7500
   23 -3.7500
   24 -3.5625
   25 -3.5625
   26 -3.5625
   27 -3.5625
   28 -3.5625
   29 -3.5625
   30 -3.5625
   31 -3.5625
   32 -3.7500
   33 -96.2500
   34 -96.2500
   35 -96.2500
   36 -96.2500
   37 -96.2500
   38 -96.2500
   39 -96.2500
   40 -3.1875
   41 -3.1875
   42 -3.1875
   43 -3.1875
   44 -3.1875
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   56 -2.5000
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   64 -2.5000
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   86 -2.8750
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   99 -3.0625
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   103 -3.0625
   104 -3.0625
   105 -3.0625
   106 -3.0625
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   109 -3.0625
   110 -3.0625
   111 -3.0625
   112 -3.2500
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   114 -3.2500
   115 -3.2500
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   117 -3.2500
   118 -3.2500
   119 -3.2500
   120 -3.5000
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   122 -3.5000
   123 -3.5000
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   125 -3.5000
   126 -3.5000
   127 -3.5000
   128 -3.6875
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   131 -3.6875
   132 -3.6875
   133 -3.6875
   134 -3.6875
   135 -3.6875
   136 -3.6875
   137 -3.6875
   138 -3.6875
   139 -3.6875
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   149 -3.7500
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   152 -3.7500
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   154 -3.7500
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   156 -3.7500
   157 -3.7500
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   159 -3.7500
   160 -3.7500
   161 -3.7500
   162 -3.7500
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   164 -3.7500
   165 -3.7500
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   167 -3.7500
   168 -4.0625
   169 -4.0625
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   172 -4.0625
   173 -4.0625
   174 -4.0625
   175 -4.0625
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   179 -4.1875
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   182 -4.1875
   183 -4.1875
   184 -4.5000
   185 -4.5000
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   187 -4.5000
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   190 -4.5000
   191 -4.5000
   192 -4.0625
   193 -4.0625
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   198 -4.0625
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   200 -4.2500
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   202 -4.2500
   203 -4.2500
   204 -4.2500
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   206 -4.2500
   207 -4.2500
   208 -4.3750
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   211 -4.3750
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   214 -4.3750
   215 -4.3750
   216 -4.7500
   217 -4.7500
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   219 -4.7500
   220 -4.7500
   221 -4.7500
   222 -4.7500
   223 -4.7500
   224 -5.3750
   225 -5.3750
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   227 -5.3750
   228 -5.3750
   229 -5.3750
   230 -5.3750
   231 -5.3750
   232 -4.6875
   233 -4.6875
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   235 -4.6875
   236 -4.6875
   237 -4.6875
   238 -4.6875
   239 -4.6875
   240 -4.5625
   241 -4.5625
   242 -4.5625
   243 -4.5625
   244 -4.5625
   245 -4.5625
   246 -4.5625
   247 -4.5625
   248 -4.8750
   249 -4.8750
   250 -4.8750
   251 -4.8750
   252 -4.8750
   253 -4.8750
   254 -4.8750
   255 -4.8750
   256 -5.1875
   257 -5.1875
   258 -5.1875
   259 -5.1875
   260 -5.1875
   261 -5.1875
   262 -5.1875
   263 -5.1875
   264 -5.2500
   265 -5.2500
   266 -5.2500
   267 -5.2500
   268 -5.2500
   269 -5.2500
   270 -5.2500
   271 -5.2500
   272 -5.5000
   273 -5.5000
   274 -5.5000
   275 -5.5000
   276 -5.5000
   277 -5.5000
   278 -5.5000
   279 -5.5000
   280 -5.5625
   281 -5.5625
   282 -5.5625
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   284 -5.5625
   285 -5.5625
   286 -5.5625
   287 -5.5625
   288 -5.5000
   289 -5.5000
   290 -5.5000
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   292 -5.5000
   293 -5.5000
   294 -5.5000
   295 -5.5000
   296 -5.5625
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   303 -5.5625
   304 -5.5000
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   309 -5.5000
   310 -5.5000
   311 -5.5000
   312 -5.6875
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   328 -5.8750
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   352 -6.0625
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   375 -6.2500
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   382 -6.2500
   383 -6.2500
   384 -6.3750
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   390 -6.3750
   391 -6.3750
   392 -6.5000
   393 -6.5000
   394 -6.5000
   395 -6.5000
   396 -6.5000
   397 -6.5000
   398 -6.5000
   399 -6.5000
   400 -6.5000
   401 -6.5000
   402 -6.5000
   403 -6.5000
   404 -6.5000
   405 -6.5000
   406 -6.5000
   407 -6.5000
   408 -6.5625
   409 -6.5625
   410 -6.5625
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   416 -6.6875
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   432 -6.7500
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   456 -6.8750
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   471 -6.8750
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   509 -7.1875
   510 -7.1875
   511 -7.1875
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 11:11:45 AM by b4z »
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konrado5

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 04:06:47 PM »

b4z: Thank you very much.
I see some dip about tone 250.
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j0hn

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2018, 04:30:25 PM »

Can anything be done the crosstalk interference that you guys propose is causing this?

The short answer is no.

Crosstalk is the noise generated by lines within the same multi-pair cable as your own line. As your cabinet isn't full yet, it could get worse unfortunately.
I've seen lines lose considerably more than your own.

Vectoring is the only thing that could help here. Openreach aren't deploying it on many cabinets though. Only a select few BDUK funded cabinets have Vectoring.
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Talktalk FTTP 550/75 - Speedtest - BQM

skyeci

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2018, 07:01:07 PM »

I was lucky once upon a time to get 80mb sync.. now 3 years on I have attainable 6mb under my current sync of 70... next resync or power drop that's  a total overall loss of 16mb all through cross talkers.. managed to hold on for about 77 days but snr is way under target 6..
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 07:03:28 PM by skyeci »
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kitz

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2018, 07:14:02 PM »

Quote
I have attached the BTw checker as kitz requested.

Cheers.   The figures I wanted to see were these

Code: [Select]
VDSL RANGE A      80     71.9     20    19
As you are syncing at 68376..  then you may have a chance of approaching Vodafone as a fault due to the line syncing below the min figure.

Be aware though, that this figure does change over time to take into account the effects of crosstalk.   I've seen it reduce on my own line a few weeks after a new cross-talker affects my line.

Re swapping pair..  not really recommended.  1) as already mentioned Openreach cant just do this unless their is a fault present.   2) You could end up on a worse line - Ive had that happen too.  I had a genuine HR fault and engineer swapped the line to another pair.  That pair was about 2-3Mbps worse than the original.. but at least it didn't cause the line to drop when my phone rang.

I forgot to look at the graphs the other night - more from habit now that MDWS has gone as I'd normally go there to look.   As b*cat says the hlog indicates a nice healthy physical line.
QLN is quite interesting..  although I see several points where FEXT (crosstalk) is problematic..  when I view the QLN in conjuction with SNR ratio, I'm seeing noise ingression possibly EMI/RFI.

Alan can you take a look and see what you think please...  Im not just seeing typical nice smooth what I call seagull wings when looking at QLN.  When viewed with SNR its looking a wee bit messy.   
FEXT is definitely in evidence it the latter parts of D2 and another few spots such as mid D2, but it is hard to see when looking at SNR where I'd expect to see a nice shallow bowl effect if it was just FEXT alone.    Thoughts and 2nd opinion anyone?

 


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kitz

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2018, 07:32:09 PM »

I see some dip about tone 250.

That is miniscule in the grand scheme of things and bordering on OCD.  That is in the adsl tone range..  which on VDSL is subject to pretty heavy PSD masking anyhow.  VDSL uses >4000 tones and the OP's floor level is sufficiently good enough not to be affected when it comes to bit load.  It's not equating to any loss in SNR so isnt even causing 1 bit of data loss :/   Its about as near perfect as you are going to get for a VDSL line.  The QLN at those tones has something else going on from EMI/RFI in the adsl range.. rather than the physical line being any problem.   

Even if the dip took that tone out completely and it was a total drop to nothing, because of the VDSL PSD mask at that frequency.. then it would equate to a loss of 4kbps of speed.
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burakkucat

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2018, 09:50:59 PM »

QLN is quite interesting..  although I see several points where FEXT (crosstalk) is problematic..  when I view the QLN in conjuction with SNR ratio, I'm seeing noise ingression possibly EMI/RFI.

I don't think we can suggest RFI as a result of poor AC balance, I'm more inclined to accept multiple cross-talkers across the entire bandwidth. Obviously there is the (to be expected) evidence of RFI between sub-carriers 100 - 300, with the usual broadcast transmitters making their presence known.

Quote
Im not just seeing typical nice smooth what I call seagull wings when looking at QLN.  When viewed with SNR its looking a wee bit messy.
   

Yes, I would agree with both of your comments. But I feel that the messiness is the result of multiple cross-talkers adding up to wide-band FEXT.

Quote
FEXT is definitely in evidence it the latter parts of D2 and another few spots such as mid D2, but it is hard to see when looking at SNR where I'd expect to see a nice shallow bowl effect if it was just FEXT alone.

That is where your experience comes to the fore; I would normally look at the Hlog and QLN plots to gauge the quality of the metallic pathway -- leaving the specifics for others to analyse.

[off topic]
I had to download the landscape montage, above, and cut it into the eight component images. Then shuffle them around and view the QLN - SNR pair in a looping slide-show.

Why? Because MDWS is no more.  :(
[/off topic] 
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burakkucat

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop & Requesting a Remote DLM Reset via ISP
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2018, 10:06:56 PM »

I see some dip about tone 250.

However you must remember that you have taken a sub-set (of the full 4096 sub-carriers) and then plotted it across the width in which we would normally see the full data set. Notice how the granularity of the data has thus become visible?

I appreciate that your interest is with the Hlog plots of G.992.1, G.992.3 and G.992.5 services . . . but you cannot take the data from a G.993.2 service and truncate it to range of your interest. View the entire range of the 4096 sub-carriers and note how smooth is the overall gradual decline with frequency, note how the total drop (from 0 on the Y-axis) is quite small. The smaller the area between the curve and the 0 point line (on the Y-axis) then the better quality that circuit is experiencing.
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b4z

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2018, 08:04:08 AM »

There was a Resync @ 01:11:48

Retrain Reason: 1  (What does this mean?)

Downstream
Sync: 69009
Attainable: 67740

Shouldn't the Attainable rate be higher than the Sync rate? Or is it more complicated than that

Upstream seems to have changed:
Interleaving: Off (1) [before it was On (8)]
INP : 0 [before it was 47]
(What does that mean?)

Attached Images: Last night @ 19:00 before resync vs This morning @ 08:00 after resync

A Vodafone 'senior technical support' staff is supposedly contacting me within 24 hours. But if this is a crosstalk issue (like you guys propose) then i guess there is nothing they can do. (And i am wasting everybodys time :()

(I have this bee in my bonnet that this line IS capable of 79,999/19,999 and i think there is something else going on. Of course i could be an uneducated and delusional idiot!)

Again, thank you for any help you can give.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 08:19:28 AM by b4z »
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j0hn

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Re: Downstream Rate Drop
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2018, 08:40:59 AM »

The upstream changes are retransmission (G.INP) being disabled. It's normal behaviour as retransmission is enabled on the downstream only by default. It is usually enabled on the upstream after a period of upstream errors. It is removed again when the upstream errors recede.

Quote
(I have this bee in my bonnet that this line IS capable of 79,999/19,999 and i think there is something else going on. Of course i could be an uneducated and delusional idiot!)

It IS capable of the full 80Mb. Every line suffers from crosstalk though, and your line isn't any different.
We can see from your Hlog that there are no defects on your copper pair. The QLN plot shows the usual signs of crosstalk interference.

If your neighbours all cancelled their broadband tomorrow you would get the 79,999Kbps sync back. Without that unlikely scenario or OpenReach deploying a Vectoring module on your cabinet, you probably won't see 80Mb again.
As your cabinet isn't full yet it may even get worse.

As to the attainable being lower than the sync... The attainable is the estimate that your line can achieve at that exact moment in time. This can fluctuate up and down by a few Mb over the course of the day. It also goes up and down if your crosstalkers turn their modems off.
Your line has probably resynced at a time when the attainable if at its highest, and it has since dropped a couple Mb. If you resynced at a time when the attainable was lower then your sync would reduce.
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