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Author Topic: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted  (Read 3960 times)

Adam86

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Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« on: February 14, 2018, 01:13:23 PM »

Good afternoon all,

I wondered if any of the pros around here could advise on if there would be any big impact if i was to get an extra line fitted into my house with another FTTC service? I.E would the current line thats installed clash with the new line in terms of noise interference thus reducing any sync speeds due to more crosstalk?

A short back story is that I used to be on a 100mbit Virgin service about 5 years ago, but after having no end of issues I cancelled and moved to FTTC and I used to get the full 80/20 service but obviously over the years that has now dropped to approx 65 down (which yes I know is still pretty decent).  I am connected to an ECI cabinet so I'm aware of all the issues that we have had with them and now know in the last couple of weeks it does appear Openreach are now going ahead with the G.INP and 3DB profiles which will hopefully bring some speed back that was lost.  My MDWS username is Adam1986 if anyone wants to check out the stats of my line.

The router I have runs LEDE/OpenWRT, so therefore I can use mwan3 to load balance two WAN connections together and I have successfully tested this out by taking Virgin's 50mbit service as a 14 day trial as I wouldnt want to go to the length of having a new phone line fitted to potentially find this didnt work, given that I have cable coming into the property.  The majority of the downloading that I do uses multiple connection streams therefore the load balancing has worked perfectly and I'm pretty impressed.  However, I have no confidence in Virgin given all the issues I had and the latency on the connection is awful.  If I commit to a contract, it's going to cost £33 a month and I can get FTTC for cheaper.

I spoke with my current provider Plusnet, who said that to have an additional line installed is £50 which I think is acceptable.  They have also confirmed that there are two spare pairs available.  Given that G.FAST doesn't have any national rollout yet and the costs of that service is £60 a month in its pilot phase, I'd probably be pretty happy paying that sort of price for two FTTC lines with around 150mbits throughput (maybe a little more once 3db profiles are rolled out).

I know some people will say that the speed i have now is completely acceptable, but we are a household with a very busy connection so more speed would be apprecriated.

Cheers

« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:21:25 PM by Adam86 »
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S.Stephenson

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2018, 02:25:48 PM »

Nobody knows unfortunately.

I have had two lines in the past and they had zero impact on each other, but crosstalk depends on how close the lines are all the way back to the cabinet.

There is even the possibility that the 2nd line will run faster if the pair doesn’t have have as much crosstalk.

Personally I’d go for it and hope to come out with 120mbps initially until g.inp kicks in.
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Ronski

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2018, 03:42:58 PM »

My brother had two lines for a short while and there was no impact. I'm sure there was a recent thread on here,  and the general consensus was that it didn't usually make much difference.

The pairs are side by side in the drop wire which is relatively short compared to the rest of the distance back to the cab,  of course there is a small chance you end up with both pairs running close together all the way back to the PCP.
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shadow4dog

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2018, 04:49:42 PM »

I wondered if any of the pros around here could advise on if there would be any big impact if i was to get an extra line fitted into my house with another FTTC service? I.E would the current line thats installed clash with the new line in terms of noise interference thus reducing any sync speeds due to more crosstalk?

When I installed my second line it cut the sync speed on the first line from 72Mbps to 63Mbps. I'm also on an ECI cabinet. When G.INP was briefly enabled on the CAB it went back up to 72Mbps... The line continues to be on Fast Path which was ultra important for me.
The second line travels over a longer route so only syncs at about 55Mbps but it has G.INP enabled so is able to sync at about 62Mbps. 

My downloads are pretty quick, about 120 Mbps depending on who's sending the data. I have different suppliers for the lines which was nice when one went down a few months back, I didn't notice it but for the error logs and errors on BT's pages. I'd be reluctant to give my setup up now as it works really well.

Tim
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re0

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2018, 06:00:08 PM »

From experience, having a second line installed has had no noticeable impact on sync speed, nor has it made any difference to the attainable, SNRM and reliability of the first line that I can see. I am on a Huawei cabinet, and the first line has G.INP and syncs at a solid 79,999/19,999 Kbps with a typical margin a smidge under 5 dB. That was pretty much the same before the installation.

Of course, it is one of these "if you don't try, you'll never know" things and I can confirm I shared your concerns up until install. In any case, like others have said, it depends on how much in close proximity they running of each other. I would be surprised if it made any difference, but do bear in mind the factors.

It looks like you current line is stable enough and you are on the Speed DLM profile (with Plusnet) with a good MTBE value so as soon as 3 dB becomes available we should see the DLM adjust the parameters to give you a reasonable boost if you are still within the thresholds.
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j0hn

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2018, 06:58:46 PM »

Short answer, you won't know till you try.
Crosstalk is a lottery.
I've seen lines where the 2nd pair sharing a drop wire knocked 20Mb off the 1st.
I've seen many more times where the 2nd line has had no impact on the 1st.
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Adam86

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2018, 08:34:41 PM »

Cheers all for the most helpful responses.  This is something I will probably go ahead with and do over the next few weeks, unless Virgin come back with some outstanding offer to stay with them for 12 months but I doubt it.  It would probably be my luck that I'd hit a lot of crosstalk! If it had such a negative affect, would the downstream handback threshold kick in or would it be a case of its through my own doing taking two lines into the property?

It does make sense to have two different service providers as you say shadow4dog as then I suppose the only point of failure is physical factors like the cabinet or something going on down at the exchange.  I only contacted Plusnet with them being my current supplier and I thought £50 for a new line install seemed pretty cheap, unless anyone knows of anywhere else to get one installed for a decent price?

Also what are you using to load balance your two connections? MWAN3 on LEDE seems to really do the job and was very simple to setup and the rules are easy to create as well.

Cheers
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re0

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2018, 04:18:58 PM »

I would imagine that all existing estimates that were presented to you as of when you signed up to your ISP would be valid, including the handback. I don't see how activating a second line at the property would invalidate your handback speed, but I would say that those speeds on the DSL checker, including the handback speed, are always adjustmented based on data collected anyway. I could be wrong, but it would be safe to assume that this is correct unless anyone here has experienced the contrary.

£50 is pretty cheap for a brand new line being fitted. Some providers may absorb or reduce the cost of a new line installation if you take out a lenghty contract with them, and it looks like Plusnet are doing just that. CIX (https://cix.uk) seem to have free line installation when you take line rental with them but of course this comes with a 12 month contract. Other than that, some providers may charge in excess of £100 for a physical line to be installed (I know https://pulse8broadband.co.uk/ charge £129.00 for that, but the bonus of this provider is that it is only a 1 month contract with no cease fees).

I would recommend perhaps looking at a different provider using a different backhaul if you are looking for realibility (since Plusnet use BTW, perhaps look at a provider using TTB).

DISCLAIMER: Just because I have mentioned providers in this post, it does not imply that I recommend or am affiliated with them in any way, shape or form.

[Moderator edited to fix a typo.]
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 06:37:41 PM by burakkucat »
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Adam86

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2018, 08:46:59 PM »

Well I've decided to bite the bullet and get it ordered.

I found Vodafone Broadband 78 for £24 via uSwitch, charging £60 for the line installation.  Have read some good things about them and also some bad but you get that with all ISP's I guess.
I also spoke with Plusnet and renewed my contract with them, originally they were knocking 2p off but once I pointed out Vodafone's price they said they couldnt meet the uSwitch deal, but they could do it at £27 per month which is the price Vodafone are charging direct on their site.

Both are 18 month contracts and I think £51 a month is quite acceptable given G.FAST prices start at £55 per month for 160mbit speeds.

I know you guys say crosstalk is a lottery and it all depends on the route the pairs take but can there be any major difference in underground cables as opposed to overground? as the majority of my area is UG.

Cheers
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re0

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2018, 03:08:17 PM »

I haven't used Vodafone before personally in terms of Broadband, but I have heard interesting stuff about their support and service quality. ::) Then again, when it comes to budget ISPs it is truly a race to the bottom (or in other words, the main providers compete in a way which reduces the quality of their service) to provide the lowest costs overall by skimping on decent support and backhaul for their customers. You may be fine with what you intend for your connection, but I would steer clear of them.

Being underground should mean that there is less impact from sources above the ground for the duration of the run underground (especially higher frequencies, which would have more trouble penetrating concrete). There may be other factors, but perhaps an engineer or someone in the know could shed some light on the copper gauging in relation to UG and OH cabling. :)
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shadow4dog

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2018, 03:18:12 PM »

Also what are you using to load balance your two connections? MWAN3 on LEDE seems to really do the job and was very simple to setup and the rules are easy to create as well.
I use a router running pfsense, but have used others from Netgear and TP-Link. I mainly moved to the pfsense router because it supports IPV6 which is something that's important to me.

My connections are also UG and I share the issues with Vodafone, looking in the forums from customers who are having issues with peak time speed!

Good luck!
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Adam86

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2018, 04:39:22 PM »

Hmm yes it does seem a lot of people are saying there are congestion issues on their network at the minute but just didn't know if it was the usual thing of people with problems having negative things to say and those who are working fine not commenting on the service.

Shadow4dog, how bad is your Vodafone service though? Is it only an issue for certain parts of the day or pretty much constantly? It's certainly making me reconsider the options again now tbh.
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Westie

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2018, 05:27:17 PM »

@Adam86
I think Vodafone do have some issues, but how much an individual user may be impacted will vary from case to case. See my reply to your question here.
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re0

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2018, 06:58:58 PM »

Hmm yes it does seem a lot of people are saying there are congestion issues on their network at the minute but just didn't know if it was the usual thing of people with problems having negative things to say and those who are working fine not commenting on the service.

I do understand the psychology behind people complaining more rather than complimenting. ;) But at the end of the day, you get what you pay for!
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Adam86

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Re: Advice on getting a 2nd FTTC Line Fitted
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2018, 08:56:07 PM »

I do understand the psychology behind people complaining more rather than complimenting. ;) But at the end of the day, you get what you pay for!

Couldn't agree more, I might have another look at the options on Monday as obviously can cancel the order with no penalty.  But as others have said, for my intended purpose it might not matter quite as much.  MWAN3 default config is a 60/40 balanced split on WAN1/WAN2, WAN1 will always be my Plusnet service as that has always been rock solid for me, just as good as when I had BT Infinity and I know a lot of people complain about Plusnet.
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