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Author Topic: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?  (Read 3102 times)

Black Sheep

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2018, 05:18:48 PM »

I've seen it, heard it, read it a thousand time over ......... one man's interpretation and understanding of what has been said, will differ wildly from the next man's ..... when given the exact same info.

Without knowing exactly what has happened, what the engineer has said or was indeed hoping to convey ....... it's impossible to say conclusively what he intended to put over to the OP !!.

For info  .......... I personally have had many occasions where I have had a simple FTTC8 task (Cab only work), that has required me to move the Cab jumper-wires from the original VDSL port to the newly allocated ones. Not every time is it a case of a simple digital command switch-over.

I have a feeling this is what he may have intended to convey ?? If your BT hub wasn't working before his visit, and he visited the Cab and now it is ..... I would humbly suggest that this is what might have happened ??

Regarding the ISP's "renting a certain number of ports", this is not so and I wonder if a break-down in communication/understanding has occurred here, with either one or both parties involved ???   
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burakkucat

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2018, 05:20:55 PM »

Just in case rbz5416 is not that familiar with who's who amongst our regular members, I shall mention that Black Sheep's fleece is that purple colour as a result of his long term employment with a certain infrastructure organisation . . . An organisation whose name begins with the fifteenth letter of the alphabet.  :D
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Black Sheep

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2018, 05:22:26 PM »

Ha ha ...... I was gonna start checking ..... A, B, C, D .................. then thought, nah ....... it's 'The Cat' !!!  ;) :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2018, 12:37:28 AM »

For completeness, I'll add the link to an identical original post in the Thinkbroadband forum.
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rbz5416

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2018, 08:38:58 AM »

For info  .......... I personally have had many occasions where I have had a simple FTTC8 task (Cab only work), that has required me to move the Cab jumper-wires from the original VDSL port to the newly allocated ones. Not every time is it a case of a simple digital command switch-over.

I have a feeling this is what he may have intended to convey ?? If your BT hub wasn't working before his visit, and he visited the Cab and now it is ..... I would humbly suggest that this is what might have happened ??
So not quite "Absolute hogwash" then?

Didn't seem too much scope for misinterpreting what he said but maybe he was just dumbing down to punter level & as you say, something was lost in translation.

Thanks for the clarification.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2018, 12:51:12 PM »

So not quite "Absolute hogwash" then?

Didn't seem too much scope for misinterpreting what he said but maybe he was just dumbing down to punter level & as you say, something was lost in translation.

Thanks for the clarification.

Absolutely.

I reiterate .... if your line didn't work whatsoever on BT Broadband, (and you will still connected to Vodaphone FTTC) ...... then a subsequent visit to the Cab resolved the matter ...... it HAS to be a very simple solution of just rewiring to the new BT FTTC ports.

What he was trying to put over I have no idea, but I know I tailor my conversations with the EU's to suit. I won't, for example, start boring the sh1t out of someone who has no interest at all in what the problem was ... I'll just say it's fixed.

If it's someone with a bit of a clue, or shows an interest, I'll run through graphs, charts, REIN the whole kit and caboodle and start chatting SNR, attenuation and similar terminology with them. If it's an elderly person who genuinely wants to know what I've done, but you can clearly see confusion, I will 'dumb it down' for them and put it into laymans terms.

It's very easy to 'read' people quite quickly in this respect.  :)

There are the very few occasions where it would take an absolute age to explain what has taken place to resolve the issue, so bearing in mind the clock is always ticking against us (friggin' stats :-( ) ...... it can be easier to just say the fault was in the Exchange. It really is horses for courses and every job is different.

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j0hn

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2018, 02:08:04 PM »

Quote
So not quite "Absolute hogwash" then?
That was aimed at the part about ISP's renting set numbers of ports, and not that he re-jumpered your line.

I completely disagree with the dumbing it down part. The engineer has simply told a whopper. Either that or they are very misinformed and actually think that's how it works.
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kitz

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2018, 02:40:40 PM »

Bit late to the party on this one.
There shouldn't need to be any work done at the cab at all.   Any jumpering will be on the MDF in the exchange.  The fact that your phone had gone over to BT suggests this part has been done correctly. 

As far as the DSL side of things then AIUI, once the FTTC tie pair is installed, any port mapping at the cab is supposed to be done remotely.   Change of ISP does not require a visit to the cab as the port mapping is a software configuration so that it goes to the correct GEA cablelink service from the OLT using VLANs.
The FTTC OLT/L2S is quite often at a different exchange to the more local exchange MDF.

I'm not quite certain what happens with FTTC but certainly with normal DSL,  BT uses something called SSB to ensure that the dsl side of things connect to the right ISP.   During a migration period it is not unusual to be able to connect to both the gaining and loosing SP for a short period of time (couple of days) as long as DSL traffic is going out over the same VP. 

I would need to look more into this area to be certain, but I know Openreach do use both C-VLANs (Customer-VLAN) and S-VLANs (Service-VLAN) to control (vdsl) routing from the OLT/L2S and on to the correct SP backhaul.  I'm not sure how Openreach assign their VLANs other than they use VLAN tagging.  It is possible when using VLAN tags to assign multiple tags, so in theory I suppose it could be possible to do the equivalent of SSB using C-VLANs and S-VLANs.

On reflection they must do something similar to the above to ensure SIM provides & migrations go through smoothly.  The frames engineer once he's done his rewiring on the MDF doesn't phone up or press a button to change routing at  the L2S.   Its the other way round in that once the VLAN side has been set up, then the frames engineer gets instructions to do the re-jumpering on the MDF.   
Same new new FTTC provision the VLAN is set up and already in place before the fttc engineer is told that they can go attach the new tie pair at the cab.  Any [old adsl] jumpers on the MDF can be left in place because once the engineer rewires to the cab, then its down the the SVLAN and CVLAN tags how your traffic is routed via the L2S at the headend exchange.



Quote
It is very rare I see 'Shared' (SMPF) circuits these days.

SMPF is incompatible with FTTC.  Equivalent product would be GEA FTTC & WLR so as far as the Frames guys are concerned its same jumpering on the MDF as bog standard WLR.
The VDSL feed comes straight from the OLT/L2S    No need for MSAN or HDF.

I'm sure I have a doc somewhere which shows the different wiring configurations on the MDF for various set ups.  I'll see if I can dig it out later if anyone is interested. 

I suspect that in this case something went wrong with the SIM migration. What that could be I've no idea and I will bow to your much greater knowledge of working in the field.  I'm totally guessing but I wonder if the SP mucked up the migration by not passing it through correctly as a SIM order.  If the SP only did the line order and passed dsl separate,  then it could be a reason why the MDF jumpering was done and then the dsl bit was picked up as new needing a move at the cab to get the correct VLAN?   God knows it doesnt quite make sense.    Vodafone wont switch off their dsl side until theyve been informed by OR of sucessful migration.
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kitz

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2018, 03:16:44 PM »

That was aimed at the part about ISP's renting set numbers of ports, and not that he re-jumpered your line.

I completely disagree with the dumbing it down part. The engineer has simply told a whopper. Either that or they are very misinformed and actually think that's how it works.

Agreed. 
 
@ rbz   The ISPs have absolutely nothing to do with ports,  they can purchase GEA cablelinks at the head end exchange which to dumb down is basically a big fat network cable that connects their backhaul to the L2switch.

My diagram below shows the set up for one line & one ISP...  but you see that L2Switch at the bottom...   it will have several GEA cablelinks going to various SP backhauls.   Orange lines are copper,  Red is fibre. Both of these are owned by Openreach.    Anything green can be owned by the SP (or BTw).

btw the L2S is not necessarily a separate device.   These are incorporated into the OLT device as a card on the backplane.   
So dumbed down again...  Think of a much grander version of how a router incorporates a network switch and you can plug in network cables to connect various PCs.   
The ISP buys a fibre cable-link to be able to connect their equipment to one of those ports.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2018, 05:27:10 PM »

Bit late to the party on this one.
There shouldn't need to be any work done at the cab at all.   Any jumpering will be on the MDF in the exchange.  The fact that your phone had gone over to BT suggests this part has been done correctly. 

As far as the DSL side of things then AIUI, once the FTTC tie pair is installed, any port mapping at the cab is supposed to be done remotely.   Change of ISP does not require a visit to the cab as the port mapping is a software configuration so that it goes to the correct GEA cablelink service from the OLT using VLANs.

In most circumstances, yes. Not in this OP's case though ..... and as mooted above, I have first-hand experience of having to perform Cab work moving the EU from one set of FTTC tie-pairs, to another.

Clearly, this was the case with the OP's circuit as well.  :)
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kitz

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2018, 05:55:46 PM »

Aye I have no doubt you've done so BS.  :)   
The theory is that you shouldn't have to now though.   

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/productdevelopment/latestempenhancements/latestempenhancements/R1800_downloads/Improvements%20to%20FTTC%20double%20migration%20scenarios.pdf 

Quote
We do recommend that you place the FTTC Provide part of the SIM provide order before the MPF/WLR Provide order to make sure that the migration of both the FTTC and the underlying WLR/MPF are matched together. 
Obviously, we all want to avoid the end user being without broadband service for several days
(which can happen if the two migration orders fail to be matched within Openreach’s systems). 

As my post above, I suspect something may have gone wrong with how the SIM migration was placed.

Quote from: kitz
I'm totally guessing but I wonder if the SP mucked up the migration by not passing it through correctly as a SIM order.  If the SP only did the line order and passed dsl separate,  then it could be a reason why the MDF jumpering was done and then the dsl bit was picked up as new needing a move at the cab to get the correct VLAN? 

If it wasn't matched, then the VLAN info allocated to a different (new) port on the cab, rather than the existing port ...  and hence you guys having to go do it the hard way.

[Moderator edited to fix a typo.]
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 06:31:40 PM by burakkucat »
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Deathstar

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2018, 07:24:17 PM »



If it's someone with a bit of a clue, or shows an interest, I'll run through graphs, charts, REIN the whole kit and caboodle and start chatting SNR, attenuation and similar terminology with them. If it's an elderly person who genuinely wants to know what I've done, but you can clearly see confusion, I will 'dumb it down' for them and put it into laymans terms.

I had a great engineer up in the North West show me all the graphs last year when he was onsite whilst helping me with a noise issue creating millions of CRC errors.

He was able to show me all the details that the DLM was reporting, and with this we were able to isolate the problem and put it to bed.

Plug in Adapters were the culprit, creating REIN.

I did have three issues, bad cable and a bad port that required a L&S + the REIN issue. Took 15 visits to resolve in the end though.......

Great guy he was!
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Black Sheep

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2018, 07:31:16 PM »

Hmmm ?? North West you say .... do you mind saying which part ??  ;) :)
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Deathstar

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2018, 07:33:21 PM »

Hmmm ?? North West you say .... do you mind saying which part ??  ;) :)
PM Sent.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Is There an Openreach Engineer in the House?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2018, 07:40:09 PM »

PM Sent.

Feeling smug at the accolade from Deathstar ...... t'was indeed myself. :-)
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