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Author Topic: Actual FTTP roll out News  (Read 1186 times)

Dwight

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Actual FTTP roll out News
« on: January 12, 2018, 08:55:23 PM »

Is it me, but is news on areas that are getting further upgrading to FTTP thin on the ground?
There is a lot of talk about the cost and who else would like to do it but OR doesn't seem to want to blow it's own trumpet on this one.
Where I live there are only two Cab in town which are FTTP, all the rest are FTTC/FTTPOD. The two are in the town center and seem to mainly serve the Council!  ;)
But trying to find any other info the council don't seem to have an interest, BT as far as I can make out think if you have 80/20 you need no more. So it just leaves VM who are currently digging up our streets with gusto!
The cost I understand but when your now selling to all LLU/ISP surely it's better to invest positively and sell on that investment rather than sounding like a Scottish motor mechanic doing a quote!
Any info to the contra would be grateful.
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Ignitionnet

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 10:55:37 PM »

Is it me, but is news on areas that are getting further upgrading to FTTP thin on the ground?
But trying to find any other info the council don't seem to have an interest, BT as far as I can make out think if you have 80/20 you need no more. So it just leaves VM who are currently digging up our streets with gusto!
The cost I understand but when your now selling to all LLU/ISP surely it's better to invest positively and sell on that investment rather than sounding like a Scottish motor mechanic doing a quote!

These are some good questions that I can answer. Yes, areas that are being upgraded to FTTP are thin on the ground. These are mostly areas that either have no FTTC or slow FTTC being upgraded under the BDUK programme. The bulk of the rest is/will be new build properties and some industrial estates and commercial areas. I can answer it with the help of the first quote I emboldened. BT don't think if you have 80/20 you need no more, customers do. The vast majority of those that can purchase FTTP purchase 80/20 or lower. This leaves zero business case for Openreach to overbuild the FTTC with FTTP as they are in line for zero additional revenue until people decide 80/20 is inadequate, which is probably a little way away.

The second bit I emboldened is another reason why they are reticent about spending. LLU operators don't want Openreach FTTP. They want customers on copper all the way from home to exchange, where it terminates on their equipment. They rent the copper from Openreach and get all the revenue from broadband ADSL and voice. They aren't as fond of FTTC and showed a fair amount of resistance to it as it made some of their equipment in the exchange redundant and reduced their control over the service. They are even less fond of FTTP as, in a pure FTTP scenario, they have no control at all over the physical media and their MSANs, the kit previously terminating ADSL broadband and voice, becomes useless. The FTTP will go straight into the exchange and connect to an LLU operator's switch leaving the copper stuff redundant.

LLO operators were hoping for point to point fibre they could rent from Openreach and place their own equipment either side of the fibre. What they've gotten is the solution being delivered by South Korea, Singapore, Japan, etc, where they are delivered a bitstream, not an optical signal, that may emulate LLU to an extent but still places control within Openreach's space.

That they have to wholesale further reduces their revenues. Openreach get a cut for supplying the service, the LLU operators taking feeds straight from the exchange get all the rest, and in the case of BT Wholesale and other wholesale providers they pay Openreach, take payment from their ISP customers and take a cut in between.

If Openreach were allowed to remove copper completely and force everyone in an area to take FTTP that would improve the business case. LLU operators demand that the copper remains so that they can continue to sell their cheap ADSL. Likewise if BT were able to keep the FTTP network to themselves for a period and have no requirement to allow anyone else to use it that would improve the business case dramatically. Those two factors are how Verizon in the USA have been able to justify their fibre build, FiOS. It's just for them and they've removed the copper when they've installed the fibre.
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Dwight

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2018, 05:30:30 PM »

Thanks for that Ignitionnet,
My expectation is when 4K becomes more the norm for streaming people will start asking for more peed. But like you say when you get full fiber then pay for an 80/20 FTTC speed set you have to wonder! The parity side of it would be nice as up loading photos is still a chore even at 10.
Oh well will have to wait and see.
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ktz392837

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2018, 07:59:25 PM »

The main reason I pay for 80/20 is for the faster upload if there was a 55/20 or perhaps even a 40/20 I would downgrade if the saving was worth it.

I generally find the price difference between the packages are usually so minor though you may as well pay for the full 80/20 if the line supports it.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2018, 11:06:14 AM »

Thank you for that explanation, Ignitionnet ........... I wish our leaders would explain it to us in this manner, so I could at least attempt to answer end-users similar questions !!

It's so much easier to understand when put in layman's terms.  :)
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Dwight

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2018, 01:42:10 PM »

Thank you for that explanation, Ignitionnet ........... I wish our leaders would explain it to us in this manner, so I could at least attempt to answer end-users similar questions !!

It's so much easier to understand when put in layman's terms.  :)

 :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Black Sheep

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2018, 02:40:34 PM »

I'm not sure what's tickled, Dwight, but for the record this was a genuine reply to Ignitionnet.

When things are put over in an easy-to-understand manner, (as opposed to using business-speak, acronyms, big words that you have to GOOGLE, and an assumption the readership are at the same level as the author) ..... it is a breath of fresh air.

Surprisingly, it appears to be an art-form for many, as they don't possess this ability. Luckily for us, this renowned forum has for the most-part, experts that do.  :) :)
 
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Bowdon

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2018, 03:16:44 PM »

I would like to pick up the question of need. If people need higher rate connections, or if they need fttp.

The people who make the case for FTTP and faster connections come up against the "well customers always buy the low costing package when there is a choice". While this might be appear to be true and reflected in the statistics as being so, the numbers might not tell the full story.

For example BT recently give a speed boost to people on Infinity 1 bringing their speed up to Infinity 2 speeds, yet are paying less. I've remained on Infinity 2 still paying Infinity 2 prices. But I know of other people who have 'downgraded' to Infinity 1, immediately got the speed boost, so they are getting the same service as they used to have. But on the stats it would look like they have chosen a lower speed product.

How many lines can operate the 80/20? There is probably only a small amount of lines that can get 80/20. The advertised connection rates are deceptive really as the average person doesnt get that. Yet we, as customers, accept we pay for something we know we're not going to get.

I think the reason people pick the lowest speed on FTTP packages will be 1. price and 2. you are getting what you pay for. FTTP is a more reliable technology. So the customer has better value when they pay their hard earned money over. For example. I want FTTP, but I wouldn't be picking the fastest speed of FTTP. Apart from that being the most expensive, the biggest factor of getting FTTP would be getting away from FTTC.

So without people having the opportunity to have higher speeds, how can customers prove their need for higher speeds? Lets not forget, most people dont even get full speed on their current packages.

I'll put myself as an example. I am now getting 66/19 of a 80/20 package. From my location to the cabinet G.fast isn't going to help me. I want a 100mb constant connection. No fttp-like technology is available to me. VM are around here though to be honest, they come across as shady. I don't know what projected speed I'd get with them, nor what their contention situation is in this area (they totally ignored my tweet to them when I asked). So how is my need for speed expressed in any statistics? It isn't. I'm just one person. There could be millions more like me, especially those with worse speeds than me, and especially those still on adsl who dont even have the opportunity to get even FTTC.

Sorry for the long rant. I have the natural urge to stand up for the little people, or the 'low speeders'.
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Ronski

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2018, 03:30:34 PM »

I would also like more speed, I pay for 80/20 but get 47/7 or there abouts. Its more upload I would like, so when VM goes live I'll take a chance on them, it's going to be a long time before BT can offer me anything better, although I may get better if I was on the Huawei cab, but it's still an unknown as to whether the upload would be any better.

VM's uploads still aren't great unless taking the higher rate package, even then it's only 20Mbps.
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Dwight

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2018, 09:09:38 PM »

I'm not sure what's tickled, Dwight, but for the record this was a genuine reply to Ignitionnet.
It was the thought of a mash up between the IT crowd meets Dads army! The nerds explaining it to you street savie Engineers!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 09:12:07 PM by Dwight »
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Dwight

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2018, 09:16:36 PM »

My wonder is speed but not for the Max but for Parity. With more and more video and picture apps and sharing them it would be nice to download them just as quick as the web pages appear.
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Ignitionnet

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2018, 09:24:35 AM »

Thank you for that explanation, Ignitionnet ........... I wish our leaders would explain it to us in this manner, so I could at least attempt to answer end-users similar questions !!

It's so much easier to understand when put in layman's terms.  :)

You're welcome. Much as you guys are an easy place to lay blame you're very much a product of your environment. That environment is one where most people don't want to spend anything on broadband if they can help it and offering them FTTP is a waste of money.

I write this as an 'enthusiast' that always takes the highest rated service I can, in this case a now behaving VM 'Voom' 3 service. I keep BTR VDSL as a spare, naturally :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 02:11:27 PM »

Bear in mind companies often make bad judgements (which you should know ignition when BT wrongly judged the demand on your cabinet for FTTC) :)

Openreach demand comes from the companies they sell to, not end users, companies like talktalk their business plan is to sell en masse bottom tier adsl products, sky also like to provide free adsl with premium tv packages.  I think BT retail see the potential demand for FTTP but BT retail on its own is not large enough to justify a large scale openreach FTTP rollout.

My view is if FTTP was marketed correctly it would get takeup, FTTC got its takeup by been sold on the basis its needed to get reliable iptv such as HD netflix.  Even if its misleading FTTP could potentially be sold on the basis that it is needed for reliable 4k iptv.  Its proven people will spend money to get what they perceive as better quality tv content.

A huge barrier to FTTP is the fact openreach cannot retire the copper, this is a pretty big barrier, do not underestimate it (I know you already know this ignition, this comment is more for others), if copper could be retired then you got revenue from selling the copper, you also got the savings from not needing to maintain the copper, and you also get a much bigger % of revenue been supplied by the FTTP infrastructure as customers move over, however openreach cannot retire the copper, so they would be forced to carry on maintaining the copper as well as trying to sell higher priced FTTP products alongside cheaper copper products.
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Ignitionnet

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2018, 06:54:44 PM »

The experience and tier breakdown of Virgin Media and Hyperoptic disagrees, despite attempts to upsell.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Actual FTTP roll out News
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2018, 02:23:04 AM »

what is the tier breakdown?

VM I assume would struggle as they have lower tiered products with decent guaranteed access speeds.
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