Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
   Glossary   Glossary
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Apple getting sued  (Read 3471 times)

Weaver

  • Senior Kitizen
  • ******
  • Posts: 11459
  • Retd s/w dev; A&A; 4x7km ADSL2 lines; Firebrick
Logged

Ronski

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4300
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2018, 08:22:09 PM »

Oh well, Apple can afford it  ;) :P
Logged
Formerly restrained by ECI and ali,  now surfing along at 390/36  ;D

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5369
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2018, 09:41:25 PM »

There’s always somebody trying to get famous by suing Apple.

And there’s always a media organisation trying to get publicity by reporting it.

 :)

Personally, I know, and I thought everybody else knew, that all lithium batteries degrade, and that iPhone battery replacement is not a trivial process.    Why is it bad then if Apple should adapt the OS for best performance compromise vs battery life, thus deferring costly replacement?
Logged

Ronski

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4300
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2018, 10:44:23 PM »

Because they didn't tell anyone!

So whether they had good intentions or not it, it will be the latter people believe.

PS. They also made the batteries hard to change, now whether that is because the market is flooded with dodgy fake batteries for phones with changeable batteries, and they are therefore protecting their customers or it's simply for profit we'll never know.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 10:46:44 PM by Ronski »
Logged
Formerly restrained by ECI and ali,  now surfing along at 390/36  ;D

kitz

  • Administrator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 33879
  • Trinity: Most guys do.
    • http://www.kitz.co.uk
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2018, 10:55:44 PM »

...  and then there's the perfectly fine i-pad 2's which worked OK up until an iOS update.     
It killed my ipad and why I ended up getting rid of all my Apple kit and moving over to Samsung.
Logged
Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
-----
How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker

Weaver

  • Senior Kitizen
  • ******
  • Posts: 11459
  • Retd s/w dev; A&A; 4x7km ADSL2 lines; Firebrick
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2018, 11:00:53 PM »

I do think that Apple should have helped to give people the opportunity to swap out the battery by warning them about the battery's age or lowered performance.

I'm surprised that lowering clock speeds, if that's what they did, worked to extend lifetime on battery. The cpu has a certain number of clock cycles of work to get through and that's it, unless it is wasting time by going round in loops, polling or some such nonsense. Thirty three years ago when I worked in the first handheld that was very much true, you got the job done more quickly or more slowly and if anything the quicker you got it done, the faster you could go back to sleep. Things have changed beyond all recognition since then, but the logic of feeling that you need to be reducing clock rates simply says to me that you are spending your time in the software on wasteful activity.

(Makes me think of the so-called "pause" instruction on x86, which is a hint and is backwards compatible because it shares the same encoding as "rep; nop". When you're doing this you're just burning up the Cpu for no good reason which is why they invented this. Hyperthreading made that kind of code a major pain and piece of true insanity because one half of the processor was trying to run round as fast as possible doing absolutely nothing useful apart from fighting the other half for resources while it was trying to get real work done.)
Logged

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7382
  • VM Gig1 - AAISP L2TP
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2018, 11:27:20 PM »

I experimented with that weaver on my phone in the past.

I tested the effect on battery if I capped the cpu speed.

When the screen was on (so active use) I found battery drained no differently with higher max clock speeds, what caused higher drain was when making the cpu ramp up its speeds faster, or forcing idle clocks higher.

With the screen off capping clock speeds has had mixed results.

On my oldest android phone capping clock speeds when screen is off definitely helped battery life but on the S7 it hindered it probably for the reason you stated.
Logged

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5369
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2018, 12:10:54 AM »

I'm surprised that lowering clock speeds, if that's what they did, worked to extend lifetime on battery.

Faster clock speeds, all other things being equal, do lead to increased power consumption.

One way to look at it is, faster switching involves greater reactive and inductive loads, which resist the current flow, thus generating heat.   The heat represents the increased consumption.

My own 5C is apparently excluded from Apple’s endeavour to mitigate battery degradation but, now over 3 years old, the battery still gets through a day, but I need to be more wary.   Other half has a 6S, two years old, and battery still lasts 2 or 3 days on just one charge, same as new.   No noticeable performance hit, but she only uses it for basic stuff, email, texts and as a camera.   I knew there must be some magic involved, full creds to Apple as far as I am concerned. :)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 12:20:43 AM by sevenlayermuddle »
Logged

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5369
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2018, 12:49:10 AM »

Because they didn't tell anyone!

So whether they had good intentions or not it, it will be the latter people believe.

PS. They also made the batteries hard to change, now whether that is because the market is flooded with dodgy fake batteries for phones with changeable batteries, and they are therefore protecting their customers or it's simply for profit we'll never know.

The iPhone, as far as I know, was always intended to be a step change from the old 1990s flip-phones and the likes.   I owned a few, Nokia’s Siemens, Motorolas.   These old phones had replaceable batteries, but I never once managed to extend the life of a phone by replacing the battery.  My Siemens battery did appear to die but a new one made no difference, there was some other fault.

The obvious comparison now is Android phones.  Manufacturers  like Samsung have clung to the old 1990s model of replaceable batteries, with the higher manufacturing costs that obviously entails.

But I wonder, what percentage of ordinary Android Samsung owners have ever replaced a battery, rather than just upgrading to a new phone when the battery degraded?   

I do emphasise ‘percentage of ordinary users’, indidvidual anecdotal accounts from geeks like ourselves (me certainly) on Kitz’s forums would not be representative of normal people in the outside world.  :D
Logged

Weaver

  • Senior Kitizen
  • ******
  • Posts: 11459
  • Retd s/w dev; A&A; 4x7km ADSL2 lines; Firebrick
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2018, 12:53:36 AM »

I suspect that sevenlayermuddle and I are at cross purposes. I'm talking only about a certain class of system where the processor has a certain fixed job of work to be done, and it gets it done in a fixed n clock cycles, which takes some unknown but variable amount of real time time as we can change the clock rate. When the cpu has done its work the clock gets turned off, goes to dc. This is how those old machines that I worked on worked, power was higher if clock speeds were higher but cpu_power * time = cpu_energy was a constant in the case where there was a fixed job of work. The model was that you move a certain amount of charge from one charge cell to another at each transition.

(As for inductance, thinking back across forty years, higher slew rate means greater back emf and greater change-opposing currents through resistive wires but slew rate isn't so easily associated with clock speed as after all these are approx square waves were talking about, very far from sine waves. Higher slew rate then means greater joule heating power but for a shorter time as the voltage swing is constant. But again we don't just automatically get slew rate from clock speeds, so we have no help; a slew rate could be very high even for a low clock speed for all I know. My ignorance of electronics is almost boundless.)

That is not to say that real modern machines or real workloads work like this, and there are of course the constant current draws such as the screen, NIC, other i/o that has to remain awake and so on, but the latter work in favour of my argument of getting things done faster so you can switch everything off sooner, but it's only relevant if you actually do that.

Anyway, I defer to sevenlayermuddle who cannot possibly be as fuzzy and foggy as me.
Logged

sevenlayermuddle

  • Helpful
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5369
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2018, 01:13:14 AM »

Anyway, I defer to sevenlayermuddle who cannot possibly be as fuzzy and foggy as me.

Don’t bank on it, there is a reason my name is ‘muddle’ . :D

I do take your points about work/energy vs power, and I would be out my depth in responding. ;)
Logged

phi2008

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 420
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2018, 06:04:47 AM »

Other companies use non-removable batteries - I'm not aware any have done something similar. I also believe there is "battery condition" software that can warn users about battery performance, Apple could have provided warnings rather than slowed the phone.

As for non-removable batteries I think they're a con. Watch a mobile phone teardown video on YouTube, the space saving of a non-removable battery is minimal(and people tend to put large protective cases on phones anyway). My own phone is an LG G3 which has a removable battery and is still very compact.
Logged

Chrysalis

  • Content Team
  • Addicted Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 7382
  • VM Gig1 - AAISP L2TP
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2018, 06:47:31 AM »

new samsung phones no longer can replace batteries with s6 and newer, i replaced original batteries in my galaxy ace and s3 phones and in all phones made use of spare batteries in pocket when away from home for long periods
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 12:29:51 PM by Chrysalis »
Logged

Ronski

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4300
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2018, 08:33:13 AM »

We find the main benefit of removable batteries being able to replace them whilst out and about, at one point my wife would have three batteries for when she was out doing Duke of Edinburgh stuff, much easier than carrying a battery pack and having to have it plugged in.

My current phone (Elephone P9000) doesn't have a replaceable battery, but I need to change it and I have a new one coming Monday as it has swollen battery syndrome, so much so it popped the back off the phone which simply clips on and has a sticky pad in the middle. This battery could have very easily been user changeable.

As I hinted above, whenever we've bought a battery you never know if it's an original and some have been as bad as the one that's come out, but if manufactures sold them at a reasonable price I would buy direct.
Logged
Formerly restrained by ECI and ali,  now surfing along at 390/36  ;D

Bowdon

  • Content Team
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2395
Re: Apple getting sued
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2018, 11:18:41 AM »

Not being an Apple guy, or up with the latest phone incarnations, I was going to say why not just change the battery.

I was unaware that the trend is now to use non-removable batteries? Why have they decided to take that direction? Purely to force people to buy a new phone rather than just replace the battery? Or is there some other technical advantage of using a non-removable battery?
Logged
BT Full Fibre 500 - Smart Hub 2
Pages: [1] 2
 

anything