Kitz ADSL Broadband Information
adsl spacer  
Support this site
Home Broadband ISPs Tech Routers Wiki Forum
 
     
   Compare ISP   Rate your ISP
 
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: New Router - Line becomes noisy  (Read 2697 times)

risk_reversal

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
New Router - Line becomes noisy
« on: December 27, 2017, 02:06:49 PM »

Merry Xmas to all.

I am currently on ADSL2+ C&W LLU. My router syncs at 18mbps

I was considering upgrading my BB connection to FTTC. Given that my current router is a DG834GT (DGteam fw), clearly any such upgrade would require a VDSL modem.

I opted for and bought a TP W9970 (Kitz liked it) especially so as I would be using a separate WAP.

I wanted to see whether the W9970 would work on my current ADSL2+ BB connection and connected equipment without any issues.

Everything seemed to go fine during my short test which I did a few days ago (it synched the same as my DG834GT).

So today I decided to install the W9970 and leave it for a week or two to see whether any issues would surface. I did the QLT with the DG834GT in situ and the line was ok. There was a very mild hush in the background.

After installing the W9970 I did the QLT and now the line has a notable hiss to it.

I have 3 sockets in my flat but only have one in use (filter with phone & BB).

I tries using another filter but same thing. If I put the DG834GT back no loud hiss.

I understand that electronic equipment can throw a hissy at times but was wondering if anyone has used this particular router (W9970) and whether it increases the line noise at all.

Many thanks for any info provided
Cheers

Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 22575
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2017, 04:35:29 PM »

I don't think the new TP-Link device is generating the hiss that you are hearing. I suspect it is the swapping from an elderly device to a significantly newer device that is making a "borderline" HR (high resistance) or semi-conductive joint more noticeable.  :-\

At this stage, there is possibly nothing that you can do . . . assuming that the telephone is usable and the broadband connection to the Internet operates as normal.

Assuming that your master socket is an NTE5, I would suggest that you make the most basic test by removing the lower-front faceplate (thus disconnecting the two extension sockets) and try connecting the TP-Link modem/router & telephone, via a micro-filter, to the "test" socket. Depending upon whether or not you still hear the hiss, it will then be possible to determine if the defective joint is within your domain or the Openreach wiring. With a borderline (or intermittently) defective joint there is not a lot that can be done . . . until it "ripens" to a hard-fault.  :(
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

risk_reversal

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2017, 05:16:14 PM »

Many thanks for your reply burakkucat.

Quote
burakkucat said:
Assuming that your master socket is an NTE5, I would suggest that you make the most basic test by removing the lower-front faceplate (thus disconnecting the two extension sockets) and try connecting the TP-Link modem/router & telephone, via a micro-filter, to the "test" socket. Depending upon whether or not you still hear the hiss, it will then be possible to determine if the defective joint is within your domain or the Openreach wiring. With a borderline (or intermittently) defective joint there is not a lot that can be done . . . until it "ripens" to a hard-fault.

Regrettably, no NTE5 socket. The main BT socket has a yellow capacitor inside. Also my router is plugged into an extension socket.

Not sure if plugging the W9970 into the main socket will shed any light as, given that it is not NTE5, it will likely not disconnect the extension sockets.

I have reinstated my DG834GT for the time being.

Let me ask you a question. Presumably, if I did go ahead with upgrading to an FTTC connection and leaving aside the audible and irritating hiss on the telephone line, would the FTTC BB connection be unstable?

Cheers 
Logged

NewtronStar

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4811
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2017, 07:49:40 PM »

if you don't have a NTE5 then when ordering FTTC ask the ISP for a managed OR install don't know if it costs extra these days but they will replace your older Master Socket for a NTE5A or C and place a MK3 or 4 filtered face plate on to it then connect the A & B wires for your Data Extension socket where the modem resides.

When installed the OR Engineer should run those line tests to make sure BroadBand & Phone are working correctly.
Logged

risk_reversal

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2017, 09:35:04 PM »

if you don't have a NTE5 then when ordering FTTC ask the ISP for a managed OR install don't know if it costs extra these days but they will replace your older Master Socket for a NTE5A or C and place a MK3 or 4 filtered face plate on to it then connect the A & B wires for your Data Extension socket where the modem resides.

When installed the OR Engineer should run those line tests to make sure BroadBand & Phone are working correctly.

Sounds like a sensible idea but I have just read up on these potential HR faults and quite a lot of them do not seem that easy to resolve especially if they are on the OpenReach wiring.

Not sure that I want to switch to FTTC and find that I then have several weeks or months of hassle trying to get issues resolved.

My phone line is with BT. I did run the online diagnostics which reported no error.

As it stands, it could potentially take months or years for this fault to 'ripen'.

Presumably, if I called BT to look at this fault and change my master socket they will charge me?
I read the following on some posts

Quote
Ring BT and ask them to run a CIDT test on the line. This should identify the HR fault, and a CIDT skilled engineer will attend to locate and clear the fault.

The 'standard' BT engineer is not usually equipped by BT with the necessary diagnostic kit to detect HR faults and their standard kit will read the line as fault free. A 'specialised' engineer is required to successfully diagnose HR faults


If I accept the BT fee and have an engineer come over I would want that chap to have the required skill to fix this issue.

Cheers
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 22575
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2017, 09:55:21 PM »

Currently all the wiring in your property is classed as "legacy wiring" and is owned by Openreach. You need to approach your CP/ISP and inform them that you do not have an NTE5 and, thus, there is no "test socket" that you can use when attempting to trace any fault. Your CP/ISP should submit a request to Openreach for a technician's visit to "normalise the wiring", which will be performed by fitting an NTE5. That task is free of charge (by Openreach) to your CP/ISP and, so, to yourself.

As to the question that you put to me, above, my honest answer is "I do not know". In return, I ask do you categorise your current xDSL based service as unstable?
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

NewtronStar

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 4811
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2017, 09:58:50 PM »

My phone line is with BT. I did run the online diagnostics which reported no error.

Noise being introduced from a different modem onto the phone is saying to me the extension socket your using is not well

As it stands, it could potentially take months or years for this fault to 'ripen'.

Agree it can take many years for a small HR fault to ripen into large HR fault that is noticeable on Openreach's diagnostic hardware
Logged

Ronski

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2686
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2017, 10:15:27 PM »

The other option of course is to order a new line for the FTTC and then once installed cancel the old ADSL line. Being a different line it won't have the HR fault of your current line, but that's not to say it won't have any potential problems as it will be existing wires already in the network for the most part, and perhaps all of it - you're current line may well have spare pairs in it.
Logged
Formerly restrained by ECI and ali,  now surfing along at 388/21  ;D

risk_reversal

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2017, 12:09:16 AM »

Currently all the wiring in your property is classed as "legacy wiring" and is owned by Openreach. You need to approach your CP/ISP and inform them that you do not have an NTE5 and, thus, there is no "test socket" that you can use when attempting to trace any fault. Your CP/ISP should submit a request to Openreach for a technician's visit to "normalise the wiring", which will be performed by fitting an NTE5. That task is free of charge (by Openreach) to your CP/ISP and, so, to yourself.

As to the question that you put to me, above, my honest answer is "I do not know". In return, I ask do you categorise your current xDSL based service as unstable?

Many thanks for your insight as to the classification of my wiring ie 'legacy' and how to proceed.

Would the engineer visit to 'normalise the wiring' also look at the wiring to the extensions?

As to my current ADSL2+ BB connection, with the DG834GT I would regard it as very good ie very stable connection. Phone line quality is very good as well.

I am not far from the exchange and usually sync at about 18 MBps.

I replaced the W9970 with the Netgear after a few hours as the hissing / white noise on the phone line was driving me crazy so don't have a reply as to how stable the BB was during that time with the W9970. The W9970 also synched at 18 MBps.

Noise being introduced from a different modem onto the phone is saying to me the extension socket your using is not well

Agree it can take many years for a small HR fault to ripen into large HR fault that is noticeable on Openreach's diagnostic hardware

I will plug the W9970 into the master socket tomorrow and see whether this resolves the phone hissing problem. Thanks.

The other option of course is to order a new line for the FTTC and then once installed cancel the old ADSL line. Being a different line it won't have the HR fault of your current line, but that's not to say it won't have any potential problems as it will be existing wires already in the network for the most part, and perhaps all of it - you're current line may well have spare pairs in it.

Ok. Would this require new cabling being run into my property? and where would this connection terminate? Or are you saying that if there is a spare pair of wires, they could replace the existing ones? Apologies for asking a basic question

Many thanks for your insight and ideas as to how to proceed.

Cheers
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 12:13:11 AM by risk_reversal »
Logged

burakkucat

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 22575
  • Over the Rainbow Bridge
    • The ELRepo Project
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2017, 12:31:58 AM »

Would the engineer visit to 'normalise the wiring' also look at the wiring to the extensions?

A competent technician (such as one from our own Black Sheep's flock) would certainly take the time to check the extensions. "Normalisation" would entail removal of the old master socket (the Line Jack Unit (LJU)) and fitting an NTE5 in its place. The remaining wiring and extension sockets would then be "given" to you by Openreach, to do as you wish. The technician would most likely reconnect them via the appropriate IDCs to the NTE5 . . . the connections that an end-user is entitled to make. If you explain exactly where you would like to connect your modem/router before the technician begins her/his work, the appropriate connections would probably be made so that what was an extension telephone socket then becomes a data socket for your modem/router.

Quote
As to my current ADSL2+ BB connection, with the DG834GT I would regard it as very good ie very stable connection. Phone line quality is very good as well.

In that case, I have no reason to suspect that a G.993.2 (VDSL2; FTTC) based service would be any worse.

Quote
I am not far from the exchange and usually sync at about 18 MBps.

For a G.993.2 based service it is the distance from your home to the green cabinet that is significant, the distance to the telephony serving exchange is no longer relevant.
Logged
:cat:  100% Linux and, previously, Unix. Co-founder of the ELRepo Project.

Please consider making a donation to support the running of this site.

risk_reversal

  • Reg Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 169
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2017, 01:09:50 AM »

A competent technician (such as one from our own Black Sheep's flock) would certainly take the time to check the extensions. "Normalisation" would entail removal of the old master socket (the Line Jack Unit (LJU)) and fitting an NTE5 in its place. The remaining wiring and extension sockets would then be "given" to you by Openreach, to do as you wish. The technician would most likely reconnect them via the appropriate IDCs to the NTE5 . . . the connections that an end-user is entitled to make. If you explain exactly where you would like to connect your modem/router before the technician begins her/his work, the appropriate connections would probably be made so that what was an extension telephone socket then becomes a data socket for your modem/router.

The master socket is currently in my bedroom. There are two extensions, one in another bedroom and one in my living room.

My modem router and corded phone are plugged into the extension in my living room. No other phones in any sockets.

Please forgive my stupidity but I am not clear on what you said below. What is this 'data socket' and could I also have my corded phone plugged into it?

If you explain exactly where you would like to connect your modem/router before the technician begins her/his work, the appropriate connections would probably be made so that what was an extension telephone socket then becomes a data socket for your modem/router.

In that case, I have no reason to suspect that a G.993.2 (VDSL2; FTTC) based service would be any worse.
As I said with the W9970 connected the phone line has clear hissing / white noise on it.

For a G.993.2 based service it is the distance from your home to the green cabinet that is significant, the distance to the telephony serving exchange is no longer relevant.

Yes I understand this. I have already located my green PCB and the Huawei cabinet next to it thanks to this forum's very informative pages.

Cheers
Logged

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2017, 06:42:12 PM »

Your CP/ISP should submit a request to Openreach for a technician's visit to "normalise the wiring", which will be performed by fitting an NTE5. That task is free of charge (by Openreach) to your CP/ISP and, so, to yourself.

Does such an Openreach service really exist? I've never seen anything official about any such service, not that I am in any particular special position to access Openreach's documents for CPs/ISPs. Some of the Openreach contracts, which are publicly available, defines the Network Termination Point as pretty much anything they like.
Logged

Ronski

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2686
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2017, 07:16:55 PM »

Ok. Would this require new cabling being run into my property? and where would this connection terminate? Or are you saying that if there is a spare pair of wires, they could replace the existing ones? Apologies for asking a basic question

Many thanks for your insight and ideas as to how to proceed.

Cheers

No need to apologise, it's only a basic question if you know the answer. Most drop wires (the wire from the telegraph pole to the property) or under ground feed (if you're underground fed) have more than one pair of wires. If your feed does have more than 1 pair of wires then you won't need to new cable being run to the property for a second line.

Logged
Formerly restrained by ECI and ali,  now surfing along at 388/21  ;D

Black Sheep

  • Helpful
  • Kitizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4785
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2017, 07:17:22 PM »

Does such an Openreach service really exist? I've never seen anything official about any such service, not that I am in any particular special position to access Openreach's documents for CPs/ISPs. Some of the Openreach contracts, which are publicly available, defines the Network Termination Point as pretty much anything they like.

Absolutely it does. I probably perform this at least once a day, on average ??.

Don't get too hung-up on the terminology ..... 'normalisation' is just another term for 'removal of star-wiring' or 'replacement of obsolete master socket' or 'connecting outside bell to SSFP' ...... things of that nature.

In a nutshell, we have approx. 2hrs paid work by the ISP in which to 'normalise' (bring up to current standards), the wiring at the EU's premises ONLY IF it has been allocated to us a module by the ISP.

There are 5 modules the ISP can 'buy' from Openreach.

1) Base (Internal up to NTE)
2) Internal wiring (EU owned - extentions etc)
3) EU's equipment (If they have set it up incorrectly etc)
4) Network (OR's external and underground network)
5) Exchange (What is says on the tin)

Before someone comes up with a 'grey' scenario, there always will be. I'm just giving the run of the mill gist of the job we do.  :)



Logged

ejs

  • Kitizen
  • ****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: New Router - Line becomes noisy
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2017, 08:17:02 PM »

Those 5 modules sound similar to the SFI modules - is that service free to the ISP?

Yes, I was quite sure Openreach install modern master sockets and get rid of extension wiring all the time, just not as a free service for no other reason besides there not being any even vaguely modern master socket..
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
 

anything