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Author Topic: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?  (Read 10226 times)

V_R

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2017, 01:32:33 PM »

Well, they've contacted me again to discuss the matter.

Essentially there is no fault, I am within MGALS, only just mind you, by about 1.5Mbps.

The cocky little sod on the end of the phone basically told me "tough p00, you don't need 75Mbps anyway". I know he's technically right, but his attitude was **** poor.

I've got a good mind to complain as his attitude stank. I did as a matter of course ask what it would cost to get out of my contract, he said it would be £130. Not actually as bad as I thought, but still a lot.

There is a part of me that wants out as they've been pretty poor during the whole situation, from telling me there is a fault, isn't a fault, I am banded, I'm not banded. etc. their general CS is very poor and their knowledge almost non existent. One of them didn't even know what interleaving was.

So there we are. In hindsight I wish I'd stuck with Zen, they may cost more, but at least you can get thought to someone within a minute and they are actually knowledgeable and more than just a semi trained ape who will just read from a script..

Edit: lol that swear filter.
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j0hn

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2017, 02:00:42 PM »

In Plusnet's defence, you would have experienced the exact same issue no matter what ISP you switched to.

The migration comes with a line reset. As you're on a Huawei cabinet g.inp has been removed and INP/interleaving applied, knocking the sync down. This is entirely automated and no ISP can control any part of it.

Ideally Plusnet staff should have been able to tell you that though. Sending the OpenReach engineer to do a DLM reset would have made the clock start again on waiting for g.inp to return.
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V_R

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2017, 02:03:01 PM »

Yeah indeed, and I now know this, so will be prepared for it next time/in the future.

But my point about the exceptional levels of retardation from their CS still stands.
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kitz

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2017, 03:00:09 PM »

But my point about the exceptional levels of retardation from their CS still stands.
Ideally Plusnet staff should have been able to tell you that though.

Indeed, that wasn't very clever, nor was the attitude.   
For that I do feel V_R has valid grounds for complaint if he has the time to chase it.

Quote
Sending the OpenReach engineer to do a DLM reset would have made the clock start again on waiting for g.inp to return.
From what I can gather, he didn't do..  so hopefully thats a plus.   I just wish we knew what the time scale is.. and why on some lines it only takes a few days yet on others it takes many weeks.

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V_R

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2017, 03:07:10 PM »

Yeah he didn't do the reset, he just sorted the back wiring and changed the old filtered socket socket for a newer pre filtered one..

I'd also be a little happier if what the engineer did actually improved anything, but it didn't, my stats are exactly the same as they were and now I have to get an extension fitted to replace the socket he disconnected!  :mad:

So I hope you can understand my frustration!  :wall:
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kitz

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2017, 03:23:46 PM »

I can :(
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WWWombat

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2017, 05:43:52 PM »

Cheap broadband == cheap support staff. Even if they come from Yorkshire.

That makes for a turnover in staff, and light training regimes.

But there's a downside to having a complicated DLM system involved... that complication makes it difficult for new & lightly-trained staff to understand themselves, let alone explain it to customers. When we (somewhat knowledgeable people) use a term like "banding", we tend to accept that there are other phrases, but they all come down to capping the speed ... and we've had *years* to come to terms with the process. It would help CS staff if BT used the same term in their explanations, and in the result of the FTTC tests. But the tests certainly don't - they just show a lower profile.

Is some of this a matter of inconsistent terminology in places?

What term does BT use to describe the process we call "banding"? And do they use the same term for FTTC and ADSL2+?
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ejs

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2017, 06:21:22 PM »

I think band, banded is the term BT use in technical documents. I don't think there's any inconsistent terminology, although no, the FTTC test doesn't print a big BANDED warning if the connection is. But even if a connection were banded, I don't think that in itself is a reason to send out Openreach to do a reset.

More and more people seem to be running into difficultly trying to solve something that isn't a problem. If the ISP does something, whatever they do will be wrong as there is no problem, and if they tell the end user that there is no problem, then the end user probably won't like that either.
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jelv

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2017, 09:20:19 PM »

The problem is, no matter how many times you tell people that the speed they will actually get is dependent on their line and others on the same cabinet, they feel aggrieved if they are not getting the same speeds as others on the same product and paying the same amount.

Perhaps ISPs should automatically discount their prices by 1p per month for every 1Mbps they are syncing below the top speed for their product. That way everybody would get the speed they are paying for!  >:D
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kitz

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2017, 10:54:11 PM »

Is some of this a matter of inconsistent terminology in places?

What term does BT use to describe the process we call "banding"? And do they use the same term for FTTC and ADSL2+?

Good question!

With 20CN/21CN,  BT Wholesale definitely use the term 'capped' for their DLM. eg "capped rate xkbps".  All the BTw docs from where I mostly learnt about DLM use 'capping' or 'capped'.  SINET uses capped in several of their documents eg Capped Rate Profiles
 

I always previously used the term capped, but somewhere along the lines I admit, I too have started to used the term banding for NGA.   

I can't find any official  Openreach document that uses the term banding, other than for price banding.   The first time I can see 'banding' being used is from the Plusnet explanations written by Chris Pettit.

Even the ASSIA court case mentions 'speed capping'. eg

The 20CN, 21CN and NGA profiles contain values for levels of interleaving, cap and/or margin (depending on the network). and
BT's NGA system subsequently held to be essential to BT's infringement at trial (the "cap level table").

Somewhere along the lines we have shifted towards using the term banding.   If this is an implication of the ASSIA dispute over 'capping' I have no idea.

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kitz

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2017, 11:10:17 PM »

Perhaps ISPs should automatically discount their prices by 1p per month for every 1Mbps they are syncing below the top speed for their product. That way everybody would get the speed they are paying for!  >:D

I think that argument has been covered several times before.   Primarily on the grounds of cost. 
Longer lines are those which cost most to install and maintain as far as Openreach are concerned.   
Its also longer lines which are more problematic when it comes to DSL requiring more support from both OR and the ISP :(
If you start going down that route it could get messy.   We've already been down the bandwidth charging route. 

Openreach already have the various speed bands and there's also the lower cost option for very slow vdsl lines.
 
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burakkucat

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2017, 11:46:00 PM »

I can't find any official  Openreach document that uses the term banding, other than for price banding.   The first time I can see 'banding' being used is from the Plusnet explanations written by Chris Pettit.

I seem to recall that it was during the marathon, long drawn out, process to the resolution of Bald Eagle1's circuit problem that certain Plusnet operatives insisted that there was no "capping" just "banding".  ::)
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jelv

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2017, 12:42:16 AM »

The reason I suggested 1p per 1Mbps was to make it a nominal discount (far less than the value if the introductory offers ISP's throw around left,right and centre!) - the maximum discount would be 79p for an 80/20 line delivering 1Mbps. In practice must peoples discount would be around 20p tops because ISP's would do as Plusnet do and only sell people higher spec. products if the line would actually benefit.
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ejs

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2017, 08:55:34 AM »

I've looked at the WBC DLM FAQ Issue 1.0 from 2009 and it certainly talks about banded profiles:

Quote
What are banded profiles?

Initially, each line is configured to run in a fully rate adaptive mode (i.e. very low
minimum rate and maximum rate set as high as possible). One of the options that DLM
uses to improve a line’s performance is the application of a banded line profile. Rather
than being fully rate adaptive these banded profiles are more restricted and specify a
minimum and maximum rate that the line has to run between. For example, one
banded profile specifies a minimum rate of 3.3Mbps and a maximum rate of 6.6Mbps
and therefore any line with this profile would be restricted to run within this range.

There are various levels of banded profiles available to DLM and they are carefully
applied based on the historical line speed performance of the line. The banded profiles
are detailed in the table below:

WBC banded line profile (rate kbps)
7168 - 14336
4864 - 9728
3328 - 6656
2272 - 4544
1472 - 3072
1152 - 2272
576 - 1152
288 - 576
160 - 288

I think the current FTTC DLM only bothers about capping the maximum rate, I think it no longer also sets a higher minimum rate.

The solution is to use neither the term banding nor capping, and just say that the DLM always ensures that you receive the optimum broadband experience.
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stevebrass

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Re: Advice needed - Is my line capped/banded?
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2017, 02:43:59 PM »


Openreach already have the various speed bands and there's also the lower cost option for very slow vdsl lines.

Do you mean the 18/2 product? My line on the BTW checker used to show provide availability and Sim availability. When I enquired to BT retail earlier this year they said it was not available.

Having just checked again, my line shows only Sim availability.

I shall be looking check the market and possibly again next year and I will be interested if any ISP offers 18/2.

I currently sync at about 17mbs.
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