Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[niemand]

Despite their horrendous employment practices Uber are losing money hand over fist to try and gain market share and crowd out other operators in their markets.

Naturally, once they've done so their prices can rise accordingly. In fact that's the entire business model.

The acceptance of this as part of a race to the bottom is depressing.

[Chrysalis]

They not managing their costs very well then, here they are maybe 10-20% cheaper on average to the competition, which isnt a lot, but should clearly have lower operating costs as they have no switchboard to run and drivers are working as self employed reducing their employment costs.  When you take surge pricing into account that average price goes in the other direction.

I suppose the key factor is tho what is their share of the revenue like compared to what a traditional cab service takes.  Drivers have told me this before in past conversations with them but I cannot remember what they told me now.

This article suggests when looked at from a city to city basis, in established areas uber is profitable, but globally they losing money as their expenditure is on marketing, development etc. to expand into new areas.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/ubers-revenue-profit-and-loss-2015-8

newer article here

http://uk.businessinsider.com/uber-leaked-finances-accounts-revenues-profits-2017-2

This quote suggests the cut is 20% which seems low.

Uber's net revenue per quarter looks very positive. Net revenue is the cut Uber takes on each ride, which is roughly 20%

[Ronski]

Taxify has also been stopped from operating in London.

"Taxify has done everything in its power to comply with the local regulations, but is faced by aggression from TfL,"

https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/uber-rival-taxify-forced-to-suspend-operations-in-london/

[sevenlayermuddle]

Taxify has also been stopped from operating in London.

That has really cheered me up.

I wish I could say I was surprised, or shocked, that Taxify would launch a service without all the correct licenses.   But in truth it’s par for the course these days, nobody seems to give a damn about rules and regulations.

Full marks to TFL for bucking the trend, and actually asking people to comply.

[Chrysalis]

its still coming across as just protecting a status quo if other rivals are also been stopped

since noone answered when back on pc i will check if the authority takes a cut off black cab fares

[sevenlayermuddle]

I think you’ll find rules and regulations are rigorously enforced for black cabs too, as well as minicabs and other private hire.

I’ve not researched it, so can’t cite examples, but willing to bet TFL have taken enforcement action over lots of other non conformant minicabs, private hire, and black cab operators too, over the years.   I’m sure they’re not just picking on Uber or Taxify.

[Chrysalis]

How often do you hear of companies been banned to operate in the uk, I am not talking about minor enforcement like applying fines, I am talking about banning a company from operating.  If you think there is nothing unusual going on here I dont know what to say.

Ok so its been revealed here that the prices the black cabs charge is set by another entity, so I did some research.

So the tfL regulates minimum prices.  Considering the free market UK this is very heavy handed from a regulator compared to other sectors.

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/taxi-fares/tariffs

But is there any revenue sharing going on?

I couldnt find any information to support this, so it seems the tfl takes no cut from revenues of black taxis.

However I have found evidence that the tfl as part of the local authority has a vested interest in making things work for black cab drivers.

42million investment in them as said here
http://www.cityam.com/269333/sadiq-khan-wants-pay-black-taxi-drivers-cabbies-42m-scrap

Money spent to add more black cab taxi lanes, more taxi ranks, and a 5k grant available to black cab drivers, total cost not revealed.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/sadiq-khan-plans-100-new-london-taxi-ranks-to-help-black-cab-drivers-compete-with-uber-a3343316.html

I wonder how many other private entities enjoy this kind of LA/state support.

[sevenlayermuddle]

@Chrysalis,

You clearly have strong opinions.   May I ask, do you actually live in London, or use london transport often?

[Chrysalis]

No but I have strong opinion on things like state assistance to private companies.

This whole saga just seems dodgy to me. 

London is still part of the UK, it shouldnt have its own special laws and accepted practices.

The mayor of London has openly admitted to the press he is helping one private entity over another which is just completely bizarre as we have an open free market.

If I was the uber legal representative, an option would be to tell the high court that the tfl is not a unbiased regulator as its part of a authority that has invested in its competitor.

[sevenlayermuddle]

Me - I don’t live in London either, but I visit a few times a year, usually using trains & the underground.  On average, I probably use a London black cab, about 2 or 3 times a year.   I’ll also use a greater London Minicab, maybe once every year or three.

Those personal experiences form the basis of my own opinions of London Taxis.

All opinions are valid of course.

[gt94sss2]

How often do you hear of companies been banned to operate in the uk, I am not talking about minor enforcement like applying fines, I am talking about banning a company from operating.  If you think there is nothing unusual going on here I dont know what to say.

Companies are prohibited from doing all sorts of things without an appropriate licence in the UK and regulators take action to ensure that licence conditions are being followed/enforced.

Uber has not been banned from operating in the UK - its issue is specifically in London which has a different regulatory regime than elsewhere in the country - and its much more ancient:

The laws governing London’s taxi trade go back nearly four centuries. Originally, regulation was in the hands of the City of London. In 1654, Oliver Cromwell authorised the founding of The Fellowship of Hackney Coachmen, but he disbanded it in 1657 because it became too powerful. Licensing was reformed in 1694 and London’s cabs have been continuously licensed since then, initially through the City of London and later through Parliament. In 1843, the Home Office took control and devolved authority to the Metropolitan Police who, through the Public Carriage Office governed the trade until 2000. Control is now in the hands of Transport for London, a part of the Greater London Authority.

So the tfL regulates minimum prices.  Considering the free market UK this is very heavy handed from a regulator compared to other sectors.

TfL sets the prices for black cabs in London - not the minimum prices - the prices full stop. They also control all other aspects of black cabs, from ensuring drivers are qualified/have passed the knowledge, the type/design of taxi they can drive and even the payment methods they have to accept.

I wonder how many other private entities enjoy this kind of LA/state support.

Again, lots of firms in the UK get LA/state support in various ways.

The links you have posted re: phasing out diesel black cabs is to do with the fact that TfL have told taxi drivers to phase them out (to improve air quality) and they will not allow any new diesel cabs from Jan 18. This also means all the old ones now need to be scrapped rather than being sold on.. and I believe comes only a few years after black cab drivers were actively encouraged to get the diesel versions..

With respect, its clear you don't live in London

[kitz]

Wasn't some of the concerns about taxify that they were "employing" drivers who couldnt even speak English?

Just tried to do a little digging on how much Uber drivers in the really earn.  It appears Uber take 25%.   Bearing in mind the driver is also responsible for Insurance, Petrol, Maintenance, depreciation etc, it seems to leave the driver with very little in their pocket.

Theres some independant estimates here..  and Glass Door from drivers themselves report £6.75 per hour.

Interesting quote in that report

This suggests that if a product or service is cheap and convenient enough, the majority of consumers are willing to turn a blind eye and chose to ignore the associated negative connotations.

Could it be that in the consumer’s mind it is a victim-less crime, even though the potential victim is sat right in front of them, bleary eyed after a long, tough shift?

[Chrysalis]

Me - I don’t live in London either, but I visit a few times a year, usually using trains & the underground.  On average, I probably use a London black cab, about 2 or 3 times a year.   I’ll also use a greater London Minicab, maybe once every year or three.

Those personal experiences form the basis of my own opinions of London Taxis.

All opinions are valid of course.

I would have much less of an issue if the mayor was not assisting part of the free market against another part of the free market and providing large cash subsidies.  Without this happening the TFL actions looked dubious but was all speculation, now I know what the mayor has been doing it has gone from dubious to just dodgy.

Its a bit easier to have higher standards when you getting a 42 million cash injection and other forms of favourable treatment, as well as an excuse for pricing "we have to boss, its the regulator who sets it".

The safety and other aspects is just about public manipulation, reasons have to be found to justify what they doing and these reasons have to be popular with the public. They hardly going to say we looking to ban uber because our black cab taxi drivers dont like the idea of losing work and the prospect of charging less.

Kitz you seem to be of the impression that the only reason people use uber is pricing, I dont know why you still have that impression after everything that has been posted.  Uber isnt that much cheaper except in certain cases. Uber is a lot cheaper on things like airport runs, but journeys within the city they are only a bit cheaper.  I also dont know what kind of salary you are used to, but £6.75 an hour whilst considered low by todays standards can still easily be lived on.  Different parts of the population have different expectations of what is acceptable income, and much of that of course is also down to lifestyle of said person.  Most uber drivers, I have used are not of white british origin, which I think is telling, as I know from various places I have worked in Leicester that people from different origins have very different expectations of what is an acceptable wage as well as working hours, which of course is a big part of the immigration debates that go on.  Some people e.g. might be fine with living in shared accommodation which reduces living costs, they may also be fine working longer hours. I expect many people may even only use uber as a second job so they have another income as well.  If we had a situation where uber was the only service in town and this was the only option for a driver, then yes its a problem, but its not, there is competition and its a free market.  If uber was as bad as people claim it to be in terms of working conditions, they would have no drivers.

Drivers who I have spoken to have voluntarily left private hire firms to work for uber, citing these benefits.

1 - payment is guaranteed 'almost' as its automated digital payment.  Non payment in legacy taxi services is quite high, higher than many may think, especially for things like night time city work.
2 - customers can tip drivers, whilst this can happen on legacy services, according to drivers I spoke to its much more frequent with uber.
3 - customers and drivers can communicate directly, so if one cannot find the other they can resolve it instead of a cancelled pick up which does neither a favour.
4 - customers can see which direction the taxi is coming from and be on the right side of the road, avoiding things like u-turns to pick customers up.
5 - drivers can pick a pickup close to where they just dropped off, whilst with firms this often doesnt happen.  So the cost in between journeys is a lot less, I think this one is a major issue actually, as I know from experience how bad existing firms can work, they so inefficient with routing drivers between customers.

I have also spoken to drivers where the taxi firms they previously worked for would tell them if they refused to do long shifts, they would be let go, they would get docked money for been late on pickups, forced to go out when work needed on vehicles, and no compensation if customer either didnt pay or cancelled pickup when they on their way.  Employment conditions based on what I have been told are worser when driving for a firm instead of uber.

The arguments about wages just seem really detached from reality, perhaps looking at it from an affluent perspective.

Now we have talk about consumers turning a blind eye to so called bad practices, but I have observe on here a blind eye is been turned to state manipulation of a market.

Exceptions been ronski and black sheep who seemed to have seen it for what it is.

[Ronski]

I do tend to agree with chrysalis, I think tfl is protecting black cabs. A lot of people have money problems because they can't manage money and live beyond their means.

[sevenlayermuddle]

Specifically in London, where black cabs are available, I really can’t see any reason other than cost  that people would choose a minicab like Uber...

Black cabs are spacious, purpose designed vehicles, well laid out for their passengers. I’ve often ordered a minicab for four people, only to find us squeezed into a tiny saloon car, three in the back with knees tucked up under their chins.

Black cabs can be relied on to be in the excellent condition, and scrupulously clean.

You don’t have to worry about agreeing a pick-up point.  You just walk up to one parked at a taxi rank, or you stand by the roadside and wave at the next one that passes.

You know exactly how much the journey is costing, the meter is prominently displayed.

The driver has passed The Knowledge so he will get you there - though most use sat navs too, these days.   He’ll probably have other useful advice based on past experience, like offering to drop you at a different entrance to a railway station, or hotel, if it avoids traffic.

You can depend on the drivers to speak good English.   Every london cabbie I have used, regardless of race, speaks perfect english.  If travelling alone, many are able to enhance the experience with good conversation, the gift of the gab that comes from years in the job.

...These benefits do not generally apply to black cabs in my nearby town, out in the shires.   There, black cabs are London cast-offs, a bit crappy, beat up, and driven by often incoherent, non english-speaking immigrants, completely dependent on sat navs.    It is solely London Black Cabs that I consider to be such a treasure, hence my support for tfl.   Maybe its a lack of awareness of the specific benefits in London, that is causing disagreement?

In relation to the various petitions Uber have launched against tfl, I wonder how many signatories are actually users, or have access to London cabs?   I wonder how many are even Brits?