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Author Topic: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines  (Read 4133 times)

Bowdon

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https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2017/10/openreach-pause-plans-test-xdb-boost-uk-eci-fttc-broadband-lines.html

Quote
Last month we revealed that Openreach were preparing to test a ‘Proof of Concept’ upgrade that could boost the performance of ECI based FTTC (VDSL2) “fibre broadband” lines by adopting a default target downstream noise margin of 3dB (here). However the plan for this test has now been paused.

The XdB upgrade itself is a tweak to the SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio) of a DSL based broadband line, which reflects the balance (measured in decibels) between the useful information coming down a line (good signal) and unwanted interference (bad signal / noise). Previously Openreach only adopted a default target downstream noise margin of 6dB, but by dropping this to 3dB you could deliver a modest speed boost to stable lines (especially very short ones).

This is why I don't get excited these days by the stories of sending 1Gb down copper lines. Because when it comes to reality it doesnt work reliably.

I don't see point of having all these experiments. BT/OR need to focus on whats practical and how their products are going to move forward. I was expecting G.fast to be out commerially by now, yet apart from a page on TT's website page, nothing as been heard.

... and still nothing that Infinity 2 people are still paying at least £10 more for the same service as Infinity 1 people..  :'(
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Black Sheep

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2017, 06:13:37 PM »

Glad they've dumped it .................. I've said it before, I'll say it again ............. for a very large percentage of lines, 3dB profiles cause problems.

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Ronski

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2017, 06:49:28 PM »

No Surprises there, I'm getting mildly excited about getting proper fibre to my home and being able to dump fttc and ECI  :P
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Ixel

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2017, 09:43:49 PM »

Not surprising and probably a good thing to be honest. Hopefully G.INP is still on track to be rolled out nationwide in the near future (next year?).
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broadstairs

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2017, 09:58:29 PM »

No Surprises there, I'm getting mildly excited about getting proper fibre to my home and being able to dump fttc and ECI  :P
Me too  :P

Stuart
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Bowdon

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 11:49:19 AM »

I think BT/OR need to accept that in the real world we're at the first edge of what copper lines can do.

I'll be watching how this G.fast roll out happens as I think G.fast will be the turning point in thinking.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2017, 11:56:32 AM »

No Surprises there, I'm getting mildly excited about getting proper fibre to my home and being able to dump fttc and ECI  :P

Me too  :P

Stuart

Believe me lads ....................... plenty of other folk are glad, excited you're off to VM.  :P ;) :)
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kitz

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2017, 10:11:29 PM »

Glad they've dumped it .................. I've said it before, I'll say it again ............. for a very large percentage of lines, 3dB profiles cause problems.

Do we know what this large percentage is?

I'm quite surprised because 3dB works perfectly fine with ADSL2+ and on other SP DLM's without the need for G.INP   It should only cause problems if daily SNR swings are more than a couple of dB.
Even in such cases, because of the way DLM works, it should soon learn not to attempt it again.  There's a reason why DLM takes longer to relent at each subsequent step and that's to stop lines flapping.   It shouldn't even try it anyhow unless the line is ILQ green, therefore problematic lines shouldnt get it anyhow.

There's several of us on here who have run lines at 3dB for weeks without g.inp and without any problems after power outages at the DSLAM.   I've done so myself until I had to do a manual reboot.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 10:29:18 PM »

Do we know what this large percentage is?


Fair do's ..... I can't quote numbers ..... allow me to quantify my wording.

For the most part, when I pick up a 'Flappy DSL circuit fault' and notice it is on a 'sub 6dB profile' ............. I immediately look at WHOOSH RRT. For the most part, the 'Flappy' started to occur the day it went 'sub 6dB'.

I'm not disputing certain lines will benefit from this profile, especially lines like yourselves, kitz, whereby you could throw a onion bhaji from your doorstep and easily hit your DSLAM ..... but for Mr/Mrs average who far prefer stability over squeezing every last ounce out of the DSLAM .... sub 6dB is not for them.

Point in case, my very own circuit ... which literally is spun from gold. Not had one issue since I reset the circuit and 'un-checked' the 'Sub 6dB' profile ... ergo stopping DLM attempting it again.
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kitz

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2017, 10:34:46 PM »

Quote
un-checked' the 'Sub 6dB' profile

This is one of the things I dislike about the NGA DLM in that they don't allow some control to the EU/ISP. 
Wouldn't it be good if just like the 20CN/21CN system that this & Interleaving could be controlled at the ISP level.  I'm sure it would also save you guys some time too especially if it came to resets - as long as ISPs were warned not to abuse it, then it would make things easier all round.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2017, 10:47:10 PM »

Completely agree ^^^^  :) :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2017, 10:58:12 PM »

BS works in the field so i accept what he says about problems also that it seems logical it would be high risk without g.inp.

my real concern with this news is if it means the g.inp rollout has hit another barrier
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kitz

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2017, 11:10:04 PM »

Quote
logical it would be high risk without g.inp.

Perhaps I am being thick, but I really can't understand why it should be so problematic for NGA.   
Its not a problem for other DLM systems.
 
NGA DLM needs a serious overhaul and rethink because as it stands its just botched together and too many parts of it don't work as it should.    This is just further differentiating the 2 systems and making the divide between ECI & Huawei even greater.    :(


The theory is pretty simple:- 
You keep 6dB as default. 
If and only if the line is ILQ green for a period of time, then you drop to 5dB. 

If the line goes ILQ red then you immediately back out and return to 6dB
If the line goes ILQ amber then you take no action.
If and only if the line is ILQ green for a couple of days then you try 4dB

and so on.

In the meantime what was the ILQ 'doubler' method, but is now something like 2d,10d,24d, 8wk ensures that the line doesnt keep flapping.


« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 11:48:31 PM by kitz »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 11:42:30 PM »

I found it very interesting that BS revealed there is a off switch for xDB DLM.  So there is at least 2 known mechanisms that allow override but are not made available outside of openreach.

To backup what black sheep has said I have friends who have told me when on 4db (never mind 3db) their line loses sync daily even tho ES and SNRM look stable.  There is also the instances of lines flapping between different SNRM targets which should be fixable by adjusting DLM parameters so its harder for a line to move down to a lower target.

I have already accepted ECI service will never be on par with hauwei, you will just keep feeling let down if you build your hope up too much.  End of the day it could have been much worse, we could still be stuck on ADSL, if I had a choice between ADSL, VM cable or ECI FTTC, I would choose the latter.
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kitz

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Re: Openreach Pause Plans to Test XdB Boost on UK ECI FTTC Broadband Lines
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2017, 11:56:21 PM »

I found it very interesting that BS revealed there is a off switch for xDB DLM.  So there is at least 2 known mechanisms that allow override but are not made available outside of openreach.

Yep me too.

Quote
To backup what black sheep has said I have friends who have told me when on 4db (never mind 3db) their line loses sync daily even tho ES and SNRM look stable.

So something isnt working as it should.  What is triggering a resync if the SNRM is stable and without Err/Secs?

Quote
There is also the instances of lines flapping between different SNRM targets which should be fixable by adjusting DLM parameters so its harder for a line to move down to a lower target.

Again something isn't working as it should.   The doubler system is supposed to do just that.  (see my above post which I was editing at same time you were replying)
The doubler system had been extended so that times before allowing a retry gets longer and longer.   Ironically we see some reports that it takes too long.
As I said above the whole NGA system needs a rethink.
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