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Author Topic: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses  (Read 10471 times)

kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2017, 02:52:45 PM »

Finally!   Microsoft have done what they said they can't/won't and agreed to mitigate my IP.

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We have confirmed that your IP is eligible for temporary mitigation based on our mail policies. Please note: The mitigation process may take 24 - 48 hours to replicate completely throughout our system.

It's been a wee bit of a battle, but thanks to my hosts who challenged them repeatedly on my behalf..  especially after doing a detailed JMRP report and finding that no data was held against my server.   This means that Microsoft has absolutely no negative data from my server and therefore it should not have been on their block list.

 

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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2017, 03:04:06 PM »

I think part of the issue is kitz does not send enough email to be scored on reputation.

Thanks John, perhaps it may play a small part,  I guess they use various indicators.   FYI this is what they said in the email today

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Email filtering is based on many factors, but primarily it's due to mail content and recipient interaction with that mail. Because of the proprietary nature of SmartScreen® and because SmartScreen® Filter technology is always adapting and learning more about what is and isn't unwanted mail, it is not possible for us to offer specific advice about improving your mail content. However, in general SmartScreen® Filter evaluates specific words or characteristics from each e-mail message and weights them, based on their likelihood to indicate that a message is unwanted or legitimate mail.

I have a hotmail account that goes back about 20yrs and I logged into it out of curiosity.  My junk mail folder was full of genuine subscription mails from other tech forums...  including twitter.    I moved some twitter notifications to my regular inbox and marked them not junk, but several hours later twitter is still going to junk mail.
I've also marked a couple of other forum mail as not spam, but its too early yet to report if hotmail takes any notice.

As a test I sent myself an email from the kitz domain to my hotmail account and mail is now going through..  but straight into junk.   I've marked as not junk..  but another mail still automatically went to junk.    It does seem a rather backwards way of dealing with spam.   Yet my inbox had a pile of mails offering me viagra or credit checks which had got through.  ::) 
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2017, 03:08:37 PM »

Wondered why I wasn't getting any notifications on my outlook account, have now changed email to a different non MS account.

Do me a favour please to help me earn a wee bit of cred with their stupid system.   I'll send you an email in a minute to your outlook account..   it will probably go straight to your spam folder.    Can you dig it out and mark 'not spam'.   

Cheers

*I know the address,  because I know you were one of those affected by the bounces.
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vic0239

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 03:32:39 PM »

I have an Outlook account I didn't realise existed. You can bombard that if you like and I'll open them all and keep for a while.  :)
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2017, 03:34:28 PM »

From a few minutes googling, the whole SNDS implementation does seem to be a complete disaster, and everybody’s head is buried in the sand.

Imagine you are at a conference in a work capacity.   A prospect seems interested, and hands you a business card with an email that reads “hotmail.com”.

You then have a choice... do you warn the prospect that your email might not get delivered?   If you do, chances are he’ll form a certain opinion of your organisation, and run a mile.  If you don’t warn him, chances are he’ll get fed up waiting, and move on anyway.

Verging on conspiracy theory, but makes me wonder...   Is it just possible there might be a door about to open, whereby hotmail delivery will work reliably again, providing a certain subscription is paid, notionally for something like ‘validation of mail sender’?

After googling myself, I saw instances where people had missed out on job offers for precisely this reason.   I hadn't realised just how wide-spread the problem was and there are lots of complaints.  Several people on the official microsoft forums have abandoned outlook and gone to gmail because of it.  There's also lots of complaints about innocent domain holders being blocked, including a few others also blocked despite having no negative data in their JMRP report.

In all honesty and from what I've seen,  it looks like I have been very lucky for them to mitigate my IP as its seldom they do this.   I have no doubt that I could have done it on my own without my hosts dealing with them direct on my behalf.   

Thanks also to d2d4j for kindly offering a temporary solution, even if I didn't need to take up the offer in the end.   TBH if it happens again I may just leave it.... and do what Ive seen several other forum users doing and that's refusing to allow new members to use the MS domains during registration due to this being so problematic. :/
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2017, 03:36:28 PM »

I have an Outlook account I didn't realise existed. You can bombard that if you like and I'll open them all and keep for a while.  :)

Cheers.  If you PM me with the address I'll fire off a couple of emails to you.
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vic0239

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2017, 04:10:27 PM »

Sorry ... done.
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banger

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2017, 05:30:19 PM »

Do me a favour please to help me earn a wee bit of cred with their stupid system.   I'll send you an email in a minute to your outlook account..   it will probably go straight to your spam folder.    Can you dig it out and mark 'not spam'.   

Cheers

*I know the address,  because I know you were one of those affected by the bounces.

I have received two mails from the Kitz site, both went to my Inbox without touching Spam.

*Windows 10 Mail app.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 05:32:50 PM by banger »
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2017, 10:20:17 PM »

Finally!   Microsoft have done what they said they can't/won't and agreed to mitigate my IP.

Excellent result I suspect, on the grand scale of things.  I remain dubious about the merits of SNDS and it’s a pity some obviously  valid stuff still goes to junk, from kitz and hundreds of other domains.

But in the interests of not rocking boats etc, maybe better to just reflect positively on the fact that a company the size of Microsoft has sat down and looked at kitz.co.uk and clearly recognised her contributions and validity.   :)
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d2d4j

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2017, 08:48:16 AM »

Hi

Glad it’s been resolved and kudos to kitz and vidahost.

I think it’s important here to state that email is not a guaranteed medium of delivery. However, it seems more and more that users believe it is. It is not.

Also, running email servers require constant work to ensure high deliverability

Spam control is constantly fluid, and the bad people who want to send spam, are aware of most measures to stop it, so they keep adapting.

@7lm - Microsoft measures which caught kitz, sounds like a good system, but needs to evolve before been pushed higher up the filters for defence of spam.

Virgin media had a similar issue a few months ago, not the same but had issues greylisting which caught a lot of ISP/ESP out. However, I was one of the admins who reported the issue and helped to change their filter by providing log details/testing externally so it was more reliable.

@kitz - now you have been added to whitelist, subject to your server not been compromised and mass mail been sent, you should no longer have issues in MS mail been accepted but it is still possible to be sent to spam folder of recipients, as everything is fluid  I think most sites now state to check their spam folder if email not received 

There’s more but it goes off topic

Many thanks and sorry for the long post

John
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Chrysalis

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2017, 11:15:10 AM »

msn.com is also hotmail
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2017, 01:31:20 PM »

Sorry ... done.

Thanks vic.    Sorry got distracted by something else that needed doing last night, but hopefully you should have mail from both forum and main site.

I have received two mails from the Kitz site, both went to my Inbox without touching Spam.

Excellent :)   
Do me a favour please and just reply 'got it' or something.   I dont know if it actually will do anything, but seeing as they say "recipient interaction with that mail" there's a chance that it will be classed as a positive interaction.
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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2017, 01:52:57 PM »

Excellent result I suspect, on the grand scale of things.  I remain dubious about the merits of SNDS and it’s a pity some obviously  valid stuff still goes to junk, from kitz and hundreds of other domains.

TBH I think I could have perhaps lived with junk mail status as much bigger sites than me are also experiencing the same issue.. but actually blocking mail was way too extreme - especially as I was entirely innocent.

Quote
But in the interests of not rocking boats etc, maybe better to just reflect positively on the fact that a company the size of Microsoft has sat down and looked at kitz.co.uk and clearly recognised her contributions and validity.   :)

Whilst they likely will have done a quick review of the site, it wont have harmed either that right on the front page there was an article about the problems ;)
I doubt that they consider the site that important, but in all honesty it looks like some form of cock up with their system.   They didn't have a leg to stand on really when even their own JMRP report showed nothing negative against my IP.

msn.com is also hotmail

ahh forgot about that one as it was only the other 3 I'd seen bounced mails for. 
 
I don't usually monitor any incoming mail on the forum account as its either usually spam or people accidentally responding to PMs by mail.   That mail account is only used by the SMF forum software to send out registration mails, PM notifications and topic subscriptions.    I only spotted it because I became suspicious with a new member having difficulty registering, plus there was also something else odd a few days ago with another member signing up,  that I looked further.



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kitz

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2017, 01:58:44 PM »

@kitz - now you have been added to whitelist, subject to your server not been compromised and mass mail been sent, you should no longer have issues in MS mail been accepted but it is still possible to be sent to spam folder of recipients, as everything is fluid  I think most sites now state to check their spam folder if email not received 

Not sure what they mean about 'mitigated' but it doesn't quite sound like a white list - I took it more to be a reversal of previous decision, and scrub the slate clean.   That's why I think I need to build up rep again.   They did warn that stuff could still end up in junk if thats how their sensors detected the content.   I think because it contains links that is seen as negative, but there's nothing I can do about that.   
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d2d4j

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Re: Forum mail problem for those using Microsoft email addresses
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2017, 02:59:12 PM »

Hi kitz

Sorry I may not have explained too well sorry

I think the mitigation (or whitelist), is to add your ip and domain possibly, to an exception list for that particular filter, so it does not take any action (good or bad)

We sometimes do this type of exception if there is good reason and we never want any actions taken on either an IP address, domain or email address.

I hope that explains a little better sorry but I could be entirely wrong sorry. It just seems to me that MS will not stop the filter but make changes to it as it goes along. The exceptions can be added on a manual basis if needed

Many thanks

John
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