Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[j0hn]

So it's an internal wiring issue. A drop in attenuation from 29dB to 19.6dB is huge and shows a problem.

Have you tried connecting directly to the test socket behind the front cover of the master socket?

[jt999]

So it's an internal wiring issue. A drop in attenuation from 29dB to 19.6dB is huge and shows a problem.

Have you tried connecting directly to the test socket behind the front cover of the master socket?

I'm not sure how it can be an internal wiring problem, the vDSL modem is connected the same way today as it was yesterday and has not been touched. The only change is that a phone is now also plugged in (it's one of the Openreach faceplates with 2 sockets, so the DSL cable wasn't even touched). MDWS gave a reason of "Reason: 1 Remote Defect Indicator/DLM" when the resync happened today, so it looks like it was updated from the DLM. Perhaps I'm barking up the wrong tree but I've ordered some higher quality DSL cables to try out anyway.

I'm trying to find a vDSL filter to try using the master socket, but no luck so far, may have to order online but no idea of quality!

[j0hn]

It certainly sounds like something is wired incorrectly. DLM doesn't massively reduce attenuation. That only comes from a physical change in the line.

Perhaps others may have seen something similar, or know what would cause an improvement in attenuation + causes a line to resync when a phone is connected.

My guess would be the master socket and/or the MK3 faceplate is wired incorrectly or perhaps faulty. A picture of the wiring would help.

[burakkucat]

An xDSL modem/router will not loop the pair and draw current from the exchange.

A telephone was added to the circuit and, when the handset was lifted, there was not an immediate "proceed to initiate a call" tone (a.k.a the "dial tone"). Eventually the expected tone was heard and a decrease in attenuation was noted.

As soon as I had processed the above information, I got a "tingle in my whiskers". Why? Because I strongly suspect that there is a defective joint somewhere in the circuit . . . a joint that is either exhibiting semi-conductive or HR (high resistance) tendencies.

Where would that joint be found? Anywhere between the NTE5 and the serving PCP . . . somewhere where two dissimilar metals are in contact and also damp.

[jt999]

It certainly sounds like something is wired incorrectly. DLM doesn't massively reduce attenuation. That only comes from a physical change in the line.

Perhaps others may have seen something similar, or know what would cause an improvement in attenuation + causes a line to resync when a phone is connected.

My guess would be the master socket and/or the MK3 faceplate is wired incorrectly or perhaps faulty. A picture of the wiring would help.

I can provide a picture, but not sure what wires you want a picture of - do you mean if I take the entire master socket off the wall? The NTE itself doesn't seem have any wires, it just seems to plug in. It is a Mk3 as you suggested.
Too add to your thoughts, where the line comes into the property there is a small box that the OpenReach engineer did replace when I first had vDSL installed, to be honest it looks like a junction box or something, just joining the internal wiring to external - I guess it's possible he didn't wire it right?

[jt999]

An xDSL modem/router will not loop the pair and draw current from the exchange.

A telephone was added to the circuit and, when the handset was lifted, there was not an immediate "proceed to initiate a call" tone (a.k.a the "dial tone"). Eventually the expected tone was heard and a decrease in attenuation was noted.

As soon as I had processed the above information, I got a "tingle in my whiskers". Why? Because I strongly suspect that there is a defective joint somewhere in the circuit . . . a joint that is either exhibiting semi-conductive or HR (high resistance) tendencies.

Where would that joint be found? Anywhere between the NTE5 and the serving PCP . . . somewhere where two dissimilar metals are in contact and also damp.

That sounds like it'd be a nightmare to get investigated
I'm happy with the current speeds, just hoping it remains that way. Would you suggest I leave a phone attached to the line? It'll be annoying but possible (the master socket is in my 9 year old sons room, I didn't really want a phone in there! )

[WWWombat]

That sounds like it'd be a nightmare to get investigated

Intermittent faults are indeed the hardest to troubleshoot.

A change in attenuation is something that should never happen ... but when it does, it also seems to be an indicator of one of these tricky cases.

The easiest thing for you to do yourself is to take the faceplate off, and run the modem through a rat-tail filter, and just leave it like that to see if you see the same behaviour (now, or at some point in the future).

I'm happy with the current speeds, just hoping it remains that way. Would you suggest I leave a phone attached to the line? It'll be annoying but possible (the master socket is in my 9 year old sons room, I didn't really want a phone in there! )

The thing that might have "fixed" things temporarily is the current that was drawn by the phone (after a few goes); this current can have "burnt through" a layer of oxidation, to make a proper circuit again ... and if so, the current is called a "whetting current".

It is never more than a temporary fix, as only a small amount of the oxidation will have been removed, and it will soon build up again, so cause problems again.

When it does go wrong, then you might need to use the phone again. But you don't need to leave it in place 24x7 ... only when you need it. Even if you choose to go off-hook every day, hoping to act as a preventative.

[jt999]

Intermittent faults are indeed the hardest to troubleshoot.

A change in attenuation is something that should never happen ... but when it does, it also seems to be an indicator of one of these tricky cases.

The easiest thing for you to do yourself is to take the faceplate off, and run the modem through a rat-tail filter, and just leave it like that to see if you see the same behaviour (now, or at some point in the future).

The thing that might have "fixed" things temporarily is the current that was drawn by the phone (after a few goes); this current can have "burnt through" a layer of oxidation, to make a proper circuit again ... and if so, the current is called a "whetting current".

It is never more than a temporary fix, as only a small amount of the oxidation will have been removed, and it will soon build up again, so cause problems again.

When it does go wrong, then you might need to use the phone again. But you don't need to leave it in place 24x7 ... only when you need it. Even if you choose to go off-hook every day, hoping to act as a preventative.

That's very interesting! Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply to me.
I assume a rat tail filter is just a normal filter that hangs out of the socket? If so do you have any recommendations on a decent quality one? I did get one with my Zen router but it appears to have gone missing.

[jt999]

Well today has been annoying, the attenuation is fluctuating. Today a quiet line test is also quite crackly. I'll raise it with Zen

[Dray]

Attenuation shouldn't fluctuate. Sounds like a line fault

[jt999]

Attenuation shouldn't fluctuate. Sounds like a line fault

They couldn't find a fault, but have agreed to get a BT engineer to come out, the line is quite crackly so there must be a problem. I've attached my last 48 hours attenuation, both times when the lowers it's when I've been on the phone to do a quiet line test.

[j0hn]

Remember if an engineer is sent and it's a fault on your side of the master socket then it's a £130 charge.

You really need to connect to the test socket. That's what it's for.
Most modems come with 2 of the "rat tail" filters. Do you have a friend or a neighbour that you could borrow 1 from?

Does the line resync every time you use the phone? That suggests the MK3 is faulty or something is incorrectly wired.

[jt999]

Remember if an engineer is sent and it's a fault on your side of the master socket then it's a £130 charge.

You really need to connect to the test socket. That's what it's for.
Most modems come with 2 of the "rat tail" filters. Do you have a friend or a neighbour that you could borrow 1 from?

Does the line resync every time you use the phone? That suggests the MK3 is faulty or something is incorrectly wired.

It looks like a line fault as I plugged a phone into the test socket, and the modem was unplugged entirely for the test (I had no rat tail filter to use so couldn't actually plug it in if I wanted to).  The phone line was very crackly at the dial tone or in a call.
I don't lose connection every time I used the phone when the Mk3 faceplate is on, but sometimes I do and it comes back with lower attenuation as seen on the graphs, I don't have to hang the phone up for the DSL to come back.

[NewtronStar]

Reading and looking at the stats I can only think that the problem lies within the lower NTE5 or upper filtered faceplate on this circuit, reason being any insertion in that location is causing a loss of sync or different attenuation the A & B pairs to the back of the NTE5 needs re terminated something is loose

[jt999]

Reading and looking at the stats I can only think that the problem lies within the lower NTE5 or upper filtered faceplate on this circuit, reason being any insertion in that location is causing a loss of sync or different attenuation the A & B pairs to the back of the NTE5 needs re terminated something is loose

But I have crackling on the phone even when the faceplate (upper and lower) is removed and phone is plugged straight into the test socket - surely a faceplate issue would disappear when I unplug it? Unless I'm missing something (which is likely!  )