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Author Topic: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20  (Read 16691 times)

kitz

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2017, 08:25:22 PM »

Aye downstream shouldn't be an issue.  I'm not 100% certain about upstream because of PBO.  We certainly do see different patterns of bit load in U1. 

I could be wrong, but I just assumed this was something to do with line length in a similar way that differing spectral masks are used for some of the tones in D1 shared with adsl which are based on cab location from exchange.  From memory theres several (5?) different masks in use based on line length from cab.
If so then neighbouring lines of similar length should have little impact because they should have a similar [upstream] PSD mask.
I suppose there could be more room for variance if your line in the bundle is getting crosstalk from a line of different length.   Not sure what the odds of that are, but I assume that this is what you are thinking of in your example?  Either that or Im not quite sure what you mean about turning up the power :/
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NewtronStar

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2017, 08:43:47 PM »

For some reason the D3 band has become active and showing a signal attenuation and SNR margin as seen below

Code: [Select]
xdslctl info --pbParams
xdslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    1
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 5960 Kbps, Downstream rate = 43570 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 5960 Kbps, Downstream rate = 40000 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205) (1972,2782)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3970)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (7,32) (871,1205)
DS: (33,859) (1216,1961) (2793,3603)
                  VDSL Port Details               Upstream                Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:            5960 kbps              43570 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:         -   0.1 dBm               11.6 dBm
====================================================================================
  VDSL Band Status U0 U1 U2 U3 U4 D1 D2 D3
  Line Attenuation(dB): 8.7 43.0 N/A N/A N/A 20.0 52.7 81.6
Signal Attenuation(dB): 8.7 42.5 N/A N/A N/A 22.3 52.4 100.3
        SNR Margin(dB): 6.0 6.0 N/A N/A N/A 3.6 3.7 3.8
         TX Power(dBm): -11.2 -0.4 N/A N/A N/A 8.6 7.8 0.5
 >
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niemand

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2017, 10:55:37 AM »

'Infinity 1' -> 80Mb Openreach product.
'Infinity 2' -> 160Mb Openreach product.

BT Retail move money to Openreach via BT Wholesale, provide an anchor tenant for G.fast and force Sky, TalkTalk and Vodafone's hand in either getting on board with NGA 2 quickly, investing in FTTP either with Openreach or A N Other, or explaining why they aren't to their subscribers.

Maybe.
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Bowdon

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2017, 11:17:35 AM »

'Infinity 1' -> 80Mb Openreach product.
'Infinity 2' -> 160Mb Openreach product.

If they did that it would be interesting how many people would downgrade to Infinity 1.

I'd also be interested in seeing how many lines currently can even sync at the full 80Mb.

Also I wonder what the legal standing is if they contracted someone to a 12 month contract paying infinity 2 prices just before this Infinity 1 speed boost? I wonder if there would be a case for deceptive sales practices? I know they tried to re-contract with me when I contacted them after the power cut purely to get this SH6 (which was over priced by them.. I ended up picking up a SH6 for £50 cheaper at curry's pc world). If they had contracted me at that time, and then this price shuffle, I'd have been as mad as hell (and I'm not gonna take it anymore  :rant::)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2017, 02:15:17 PM »

I just cannot see BT doing that, that's throwing money down the drain as a masse of people will downgrade to infinity 1.

Yes its how virgin media operate, but virgin media are strange in that respect.
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skyeci

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2017, 02:56:32 PM »

Mum's line has now achieved full speed less than a week from the free upgrade after dlm has been stepping down the snr. Now at 79999/20 with ds snr at 4.1 on huawei cab.

niemand

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2017, 02:58:56 PM »

I just cannot see BT doing that, that's throwing money down the drain as a masse of people will downgrade to infinity 1.

Yes its how virgin media operate, but virgin media are strange in that respect.

Not really. BT are strange in that respect in that they don't follow that example. Competition should be about more than just price and what tat you can chuck in with the connection.
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WWWombat

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2017, 03:08:18 PM »

I could be wrong, but I just assumed this was something to do with line length

The basic design for UPBO seems to depend on a parameter known as a "reference length", which can be set differently per band. And I think it does include the estimate of the electrical length of the line (ie attenuation). And the outcome certainly looks like it lowers the PSD mask. All knowledge taken from my favourite white paper on UPBO: #5 on this website. So it looks like length is involved a lot.

For my line, it looks like they've set things to really dissuade it from using U1: SNR-per-tone is 10dB lower in U1, even though QLN noise is 10dB better. I guess power must be lower in U1 by 20dB.

All good so far, so long as that estimate of electrical length doesn't change. In these circumstances, UPBO looks like it should be static.

However, I have seen times when the transmit power (per band, visible in "pbParams" output) has changed after a resync. No idea why; perhaps the length estimate went wrong on that sync, perhaps something else was detected. I just leave a marker in my head that things aren't necessarily static, and that I don't know enough...

From memory theres several (5?) different masks in use based on line length from cab.

The ANFP has a graph that shows 6 different downstream PSDs, based on 6 different CAL values. However, it is stated in text that CAL can actually vary from 0dB to 52dB in steps of 2dB, so the graph is really only a depiction of a few examples. There are really 27 different masks.

If so then neighbouring lines of similar length should have little impact because they should have a similar [upstream] PSD mask.
I suppose there could be more room for variance if your line in the bundle is getting crosstalk from a line of different length.

A line is likely to share a little of the path in a cable bundle with lines of similar length. At least the distance from, say, the street chamber to the DP at the top of a pole. But the rest of the route back to the cab is going to be shared with a variety of lengths ... I guess the likelihood of crosstalk here from disparate lengths depends on how organised BT are about how they subdivide larger bundles at each pole/DP.

However, I suspect a fair proportion of crosstalk is sourced from the tie pairs, where your immediate neighbouring pairs could be any length.

Either that or Im not quite sure what you mean about turning up the power :/

The "turning up the power" part is an alternative way of thinking about water-filling.

In the traditional way, you start with fixed power, and fixed SNR per tone. You then iteratively ask: has this tone got an extra 3dB of available SNR? If so, give it an extra bit. Until you reach package speed, or run out of SNR.

In this alternative way, you start with minimum power, and no SNR. You then iteratively ask: can we turn the power of this tone up by 3dB? If so, increase the power and then ask if it has 3dB of available SNR? If so, give it an extra bit. Until you reach package speed, or run out of power increments.

In the latter way, you end up transmitting at lower power - in fact, just enough power to achieve the desired 6dB margin. And you wouldn't transmit on any tones where this lower power level wasn't enough to raise SNR above the margin.

This is just a thought game though - a potential way to make UPBO dynamic, and account for some of the times I have seen a change. I've seen no evidence that such a mechanism exists.
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WWWombat

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2017, 03:15:36 PM »

I'd also be interested in seeing how many lines currently can even sync at the full 80Mb.

Here's one I made earlier ;)

This is Ofcom's graph of VDSL2 speed distribution in 2014, before the 55/10 package became available. I overlaid it with an estimate of what it might look if every line was on an 80Mbps package, using fairly straightforward extrapolation (ie guesswork).
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Chrysalis

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2017, 03:20:04 PM »

Not really. BT are strange in that respect in that they don't follow that example. Competition should be about more than just price and what tat you can chuck in with the connection.

Consider that g.fast isnt the same coverage as vdsl2, so what does this achieve in areas with no g.fast but do have vdsl2?

Maybe you right, but makes little sense to me. :)
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Dray

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #55 on: October 04, 2017, 03:37:30 PM »

Consider that g.fast isnt the same coverage as vdsl2, so what does this achieve in areas with no g.fast but do have vdsl2?

Maybe you right, but makes little sense to me. :)
How about:
VDSL gets BT Infinity 1
g.Fast gets BT Infinity 2, BT Infinity 3 and BT Infinity 4 
FTTP gets BT Infinity 3 and BT Infinity 4

Customers who downgrade from Infinity 2 to Infinity 1 sign a new 2-year contract.
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WWWombat

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2017, 05:04:01 PM »

All knowledge taken from my favourite white paper on UPBO: #5 on this website.

Aha!

I was just re-reading that UPBO document a little further, into the section on "Specifying UPBO Via Access Rules".

That section suggests that the best way to set access rules (ie in the ANFP) is by specifying spectral limits rather than explicit modem settings. ie by PSD masks. It further says that the UK & Dutch rules are set using PSD masks, and then explains that the UK rules are based on line length from the cabinet.

I guess we have our answer: UPBO works by setting spectral limits, based on line length.

So I went back to the ANFP, to find there is a "Part C" that describes the PSD mask for CPE placed at the NTE. Within a single graph, it seems to include PSD restrictions that apply simultaneously for exchange-based ADSL (with 5 named configurations, dependent on line length: "ushort", "eshort", "short", "medium", "long") and for cabinet-based VDSL2 (with variations based on "kl0").

The named configurations, for exchange-based ADSL, are specified by the ANFP as based on insertion loss measured at 100kHz. However, the ANFP doesn't state how kl0 is measured.

According to NICC test document ND1436 (for VDSL2 modems), kl0 is the attenuation/insert-loss measured at 1 MHz. kl0=2 is equivalent to 100m of TP100 cable, kl0=10 is equivalent to 500m of TP100 cable.

According to SIN 498, TP-100 cable is twisted pair cable with 100 ohm impedance, and is 0.5mm copper.

The ANFP Part C suggests that the upstream PSD mask varies for kl0 values between 0 and 24, suggesting that UPBO has an effect for cables up to 1.2km.

I've attached the graph from the ANFP. From the example kl0 values used, it looks like U1 varies for kl0 between 0 and 24 (ie 0 and 1200m), whereas U2 only varies for kl0 between 0 and 8 (ie 0 and 400m).
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Chrysalis

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2017, 05:14:29 PM »

How about:
VDSL gets BT Infinity 1
g.Fast gets BT Infinity 2, BT Infinity 3 and BT Infinity 4 
FTTP gets BT Infinity 3 and BT Infinity 4

Customers who downgrade from Infinity 2 to Infinity 1 sign a new 2-year contract.

Given VDSL will remain the mainstream product its odd that has 3 products and vdsl2 just one.  I await to see what happens. :)

I suppose this theory works on the basis that there is already a bt infinity 3 which is above g.fast spec, so they need to slot in g.fast somewhere.
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Dray

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2017, 05:21:48 PM »

Of course,

VDSL gets BT Infinity 1
g.Fast gets BT Infinity 2, BT Infinity 3 and BT Infinity 4
FTTP gets BT Infinity 1, BT Infinity 2, BT Infinity 3 and BT Infinity 4

looks more elegant
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burakkucat

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Re: Free speed upgrade for BT Infinity 1 customers to 80/20
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2017, 05:23:58 PM »

Maybe.

So it is just your speculation or the result of imbibing a certain neck embrocation?  ;)
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