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Author Topic: My line might have issues?  (Read 23181 times)

Black Sheep

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #105 on: October 24, 2017, 05:49:52 PM »

No worries, mate. Hope you get it sorted.  :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #106 on: October 24, 2017, 08:11:59 PM »

Its perhaps looking more likely someone in the vicinity has a dodgy sky box or something if the pair is perfect?

Interesting just after midnight your errored seconds paused, as if the noise stopped but then proceeded again a bit later.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 08:17:10 PM by Chrysalis »
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #107 on: October 24, 2017, 11:32:10 PM »

Its perhaps looking more likely someone in the vicinity has a dodgy sky box or something if the pair is perfect?

Interesting just after midnight your errored seconds paused, as if the noise stopped but then proceeded again a bit later.

Yeah I think you could be on to something there, as when I used the ASUS to restrict the D3 band's frequency usage I noticed the problem drastically improved. So perhaps something is causing noise somewhere in the D3 band's frequency range? It's interesting how the engineer's tester's modem and my DrayTek can however somehow ignore this (or rather, make most of them into FEC errors instead). Well if AAISP close the fault then I'll go back to the DrayTek and stick with that. I imagine 2 to 3 days of maintaining ILQ green will put me back on fastpath given this is my first DLM intervention since the DLM reset was done on Friday.

I should hear tomorrow all being well.

Engineer's summary (on the notes) was: "This line is test perfectly, at this moment in time. But it does have a history of errors .. I have upgraded the network. Pq test vdsl test and fast test ltok"

If it's noise caused by some faulty appliance in another property then it's going to be next to impossible to get sorted. I have a Tecsun radio which does SW, MW and LW (the PL660 I think it's called) so if I walked along the route the line takes I might find where the noise is coming from.

EDIT: I wonder if it could be someone with a 'dodgy' PLC (homeplug). Hmm. Anyway should be getting an update from AAISP this morning, I haven't told them however about this theory yet and not sure if it's wise to. I suppose it can't hurt to mention this possibility.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 09:33:39 AM by Ixel »
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #108 on: October 25, 2017, 11:09:04 AM »

Just to update to say that AAISP haven't currently given up on this. I just had an update this morning to tell me that they are chasing the 'escalations case handler' on this and will be discussing what else could be done to minimise the errors they're seeing. They also thanked me for the notes that I regularly add to my CQM graphs regarding the cause of the downtime/loss of sync, excessive errors, QLN graph or such, and say the information is very useful. They're going to update me again as soon as they hear back from the case handler.

This is what I call excellent customer service and even if they can't resolve this problem I'll be giving them a five out of five review for their efforts and persistence!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 11:16:24 AM by Ixel »
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kitz

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #109 on: October 25, 2017, 11:23:31 AM »

Can I just check I'm looking at the same line as the stats reading I did in your 1st post?  :-\

Having just looked at your latest SNR/Tone compared to the one here, it almost doesnt look like the same line.   As mentioned in my earlier post, the first graph seemed to show RFI/EMI centered around tone 1700.
Yet you latest graph shows D2 as pretty clean. Even the upstream looks different.   
D3 now has an extended bit load (3000->4074), but some signs of RFI circa tones 3500
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kitz

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #110 on: October 25, 2017, 11:39:47 AM »

22k plus errored seconds in 11 hours on a line with 18db attenuation, absolutely crazy.  Never seen such a thing on any line before.

Mine can and does... which is why I have to watch it like a hawk and why if Im now going to be out for an extended period I turn my modem off. 
I'm only 12dB atten, yet Ive seen it rack up 10k Err/Secs in just a couple of hours.    However mine is different in that something will trigger it then I can clear it by powering down for a short while.   
Its a PITA because DLM would really hammer me if I didnt.  It's also why being with an ISP who uses DLM Speed profile is important otherwise the days I do get caught out, then I'd have a real hard time reversing it.

Quote
 
Black Sheep seems to have offered some very good advice as well, I think I will keep the notes from his post for if I ever need a engineer in future.

Ditto :thumbs:
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #111 on: October 25, 2017, 11:52:09 AM »

Can I just check I'm looking at the same line as the stats reading I did in your 1st post?  :-\

Having just looked at your latest SNR/Tone compared to the one here, it almost doesnt look like the same line.   As mentioned in my earlier post, the first graph seemed to show RFI/EMI centered around tone 1700.
Yet you latest graph shows D2 as pretty clean. Even the upstream looks different.   
D3 now has an extended bit load (3000->4074), but some signs of RFI circa tones 3500

Sorry for the confusion. The first post is from my first line with Zen. The new line with AAISP produces a completely different SNR graph, particularly on the upstream. This could be due to a combination of both the pair I'm on and the fact the line card is running a different version (b206 on the first line, d086 on the second line). The power on the downstream for example is around 13 on the new line that's on a line card running d086, where on the first line that's on a line card running b206 I think it was around half that.

Essentially although it's the same wire running from the house to the cabinet, it's just on a different pair and a line card running a different version. The underlying problem however is still present of course.

EDIT: As Victor Meldrew from One Foot In The Grave used to say, "I don't believe it!". Astoundingly another SFI engineer has been booked by TTB to currently come tomorrow, it's a morning slot where I would prefer afternoon so am waiting for confirmation on that. I didn't ask for a third SFI engineer but apparently they aren't satisfied with the previous engineer. They requested that the D-side be investigated, but the engineer notes don't indicate any such investigation. They also requested a coop with their assurance team which didn't happen. I've asked for clarification on what D-side investigation means, as I imagine it's more than just testing from the master socket.

Despite the PQT passing and everything from the engineer's tests appearing to be fine, the line to be of good quality according to the PQT, and the engineer offering a pair swap which we agreed was a fruitless exercise, they're still booking another SFI engineer due to the errors on Yukon. I'm not complaining so long as I don't get landed with three or more SFI charges in the end, I was prepared to accept that this fault might be too difficult to identify the cause of after two SFI visits. It seems AAISP and/or TTB aren't satisfied with the results of the previous two SFI engineer visits though.

I don't know what a D-side investigation may accomplish, though the line did drop under heavy rain two or three times last Saturday, but the PQT and Hlog show nothing wrong with the actual line and to be in excellent condition. However I'll just go with what AAISP/TTB feel is best to do.

EDIT 2: Been told the engineer will be informed of the line history by the Openreach escalations team, expecting them again tomorrow afternoon. Wish me luck! I've also mentioned the pattern pointed out on here regarding my error seconds/hour and then FEC errors/min both dropping in the early hours of the morning and then returning to their usual amount again. Thanks for highlighting that.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 02:29:13 PM by Ixel »
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NewtronStar

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #112 on: October 25, 2017, 07:09:03 PM »

Three Openreach Engineer visits in less than a week that is impressive, I remember having two visits within two months last year with a Vodafone Hardware issue and that was more than I could handle, So well done to You and the ISP.
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Black Sheep

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #113 on: October 25, 2017, 07:35:16 PM »

If the job is now being handled by the 'Escalations Team', then they will have contacted the OM (Operational Manager) for your area explaining the high-repeat aspect of the task, and they in turn will have to proffer an engineer who they think will be the best man/woman for the job.

Yes, I do quite a few of these types of job  :blush:, and the way they are presented to the engineer is far better than the bog-standard offering. Lots, lots more information of previous visits, test results, potential next steps to take etc etc ....

The main difference being, on a bog-standard task we are told NOT to carry out any speculative changes in the network if the mandatory tests pass. With an 'escalated task', we are afforded a bit more of a free reign.

I kinda feel sorry for the previous engineer who sounds like from your wording, that he did pretty much everything I would have done ?? Again, from your PQT test and with the only absent reading being the leg-balance, it appears you have a gold-plated D-side ??.

Ah well, the dark-art that is broadband faulting will always conjure up anomalies !! I will be extremely interested to see how this progresses.  :)
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #114 on: October 25, 2017, 09:23:42 PM »

If the job is now being handled by the 'Escalations Team', then they will have contacted the OM (Operational Manager) for your area explaining the high-repeat aspect of the task, and they in turn will have to proffer an engineer who they think will be the best man/woman for the job.

Yes, I do quite a few of these types of job  :blush:, and the way they are presented to the engineer is far better than the bog-standard offering. Lots, lots more information of previous visits, test results, potential next steps to take etc etc ....

The main difference being, on a bog-standard task we are told NOT to carry out any speculative changes in the network if the mandatory tests pass. With an 'escalated task', we are afforded a bit more of a free reign.

I kinda feel sorry for the previous engineer who sounds like from your wording, that he did pretty much everything I would have done ?? Again, from your PQT test and with the only absent reading being the leg-balance, it appears you have a gold-plated D-side ??.

Ah well, the dark-art that is broadband faulting will always conjure up anomalies !! I will be extremely interested to see how this progresses.  :)

I'll keep the post updated :).

I see. Yes, the previous SFI engineer was very helpful and informative. Hopefully the engineer tomorrow won't carry out any pair swap during the inspection/investigation of the D-side as it sounds more and more like this might be an external noise issue of some kind given the pattern on the errors so far the last two nights. I told AAISP about this pattern, well, I pinned it on the CQM and then told them by email and they still want the D-side task carried out. They suggested a REIN engineer might be needed, so they haven't ruled out that possibility. When I showed them the graphs from MDWS showing this error pattern in the early hours of the morning I was told they had seen this, so perhaps they're monitoring my connection from MDWS or maybe they just have access to some ISP tools which show this?

At least I can offer the engineer a nice coffee from the coffee machine here if they want one. Bean to cup with a frothy milky layer on top just like it's from a coffee shop :P.

Three Openreach Engineer visits in less than a week that is impressive, I remember having two visits within two months last year with a Vodafone Hardware issue and that was more than I could handle, So well done to You and the ISP.

Indeed, thanks, I wasn't expecting a third visit nor this amount of persistence. I was fully prepared to accept that the issue is probably too difficult to resolve after the second visit. Although I'm helping with providing statistics/graphs from my Zyxel, AAISP deserves a majority of the credit for their persistence and agreeing that something isn't right even though the standard engineer tests aren't showing a problem. Switching to AAISP is the best thing I've done this year that's for sure, even if it does for some reason end up being that this problem can't be resolved. It shows they won't give up easily on an identified problem even if the engineer's tests pass, where with Zen Internet I didn't even get as far as having an SFI engineer. Fortunately Zen Internet disputed the charge from the voice/line engineer finding no fault as no prior agreement was made about potential charges, so that's a positive thing I can say at least haha.
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Black Sheep

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #115 on: October 25, 2017, 09:42:35 PM »

Don't go over-the-top with food and drink for the engineer ...... if they're anything like me, they'll be sabotaging your line on a weekly basis hoping to pick up the repeat-report !!  ;) ;D

Seriously though ..... the 'REIN pattern' may not be mentioned on the escalation team's notes to the engineer (usually received via e-mail) ??. So, it may be frugal to mention this just in case.

I can only assume they will perform yet another PQT/DSL test, as this is generally a mandatory action. Maybe this may be your opportunity to see the individual leg-balances to get almost the full picture on the pair of wires quality.
There are a couple of other aspects to the PQT that haven't been covered here (There's WB noise, also a 20 second REIN count, and a PSD (Power Spectral Density) check).

NB ... the tests I mention above are in the format presented to a JDSU hand-held tester. If the engineer has the alternative EXFO HHT, the PQT script will have similar tests but maybe worded differently ??

 
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #116 on: October 25, 2017, 10:01:51 PM »

Don't go over-the-top with food and drink for the engineer ...... if they're anything like me, they'll be sabotaging your line on a weekly basis hoping to pick up the repeat-report !!  ;) ;D

Seriously though ..... the 'REIN pattern' may not be mentioned on the escalation team's notes to the engineer (usually received via e-mail) ??. So, it may be frugal to mention this just in case.

I can only assume they will perform yet another PQT/DSL test, as this is generally a mandatory action. Maybe this may be your opportunity to see the individual leg-balances to get almost the full picture on the pair of wires quality.
There are a couple of other aspects to the PQT that haven't been covered here (There's WB noise, also a 20 second REIN count, and a PSD (Power Spectral Density) check).

NB ... the tests I mention above are in the format presented to a JDSU hand-held tester. If the engineer has the alternative EXFO HHT, the PQT script will have similar tests but maybe worded differently ??

Haha, fair enough, I generally ask if they want a coffee or tea. I don't go beyond that for refreshments. The previous engineer didn't want one as they had just come off their lunch.

I see, I will definitely mention and show the potential REIN pattern to the engineer so they're also aware of this possibility. If they perform another PQT test then I'll try to get the results from that, maybe if they allow me I'll take a picture from my mobile of what's shown on their tester. From what I've observed so far the last two engineers were both using a JDSU. If it does eventually end up being concluded that it's REIN that's causing this problem then I can only assume somehow that both the engineer's tester's modem and the DrayTek are somehow capable of 'filtering out' most of this type of noise.

I'm hoping it might be the engineer I had last time as he was a helpful and informative person. We were talking about all sorts of things related to broadband and such, even Adastral Park came up. However, I have a feeling it might be another engineer I've not seen before.

I'll post another update tomorrow shortly after the engineer has finished here, hopefully with some good news.

Thanks for the suggestions :).
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 10:04:54 PM by Ixel »
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #117 on: October 26, 2017, 03:04:30 PM »

Looks like the engineer may have done what he was asked to do, I don't know yet until I see what the engineer notes say. I suddenly found myself without internet for possibly 40 minutes or so, when the connection came back it looks like my upload speed is a little slower now (possibly a pair swap has been done?), DLM has been reset. Errors still present unfortunately, so it's looking more likely that it might be a rather bad source of REIN somewhere. If that's the case then the next step will most likely be asking for a REIN engineer. I'll wait to see what the ISP tell me.

As the engineer hasn't come to the house, yet anyway (if they do), I was unable to get an opportunity to see the PQT test results again and was also unable to highlight the potential pattern of REIN. AAISP however are aware of this possibility as I've told and shown them.

If anything happens to change this afternoon, e.g. engineer turns up and I have more information to offer, then I'll edit this post.
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Deathstar

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #118 on: October 26, 2017, 03:11:00 PM »

Regarding REIN, have you tried the following?
Turn everything off in the house where possible and ideally at the consumer unit or remove the plug except your modem/router. Then monitor your stats, that way you could possibly isolate the REIN issue to be either internal or external noise.

I've recently had a REIN issue, and I was able to track it down to a PLC (I know...) By following that method.

Just a thought.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #119 on: October 26, 2017, 03:24:01 PM »

Regarding REIN, have you tried the following?
Turn everything off in the house where possible and ideally at the consumer unit or remove the plug except your modem/router. Then monitor your stats, that way you could possibly isolate the REIN issue to be either internal or external noise.

I've recently had a REIN issue, and I was able to track it down to a PLC (I know...) By following that method.

Just a thought.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Tried this once, no difference though and also found nothing significant with my Tecsun PL660 radio on various random frequencies in the D3 band.

However, possibly it's just a fluke but suddenly my errors have stopped!

Code: [Select]
Latest 15 minutes time = 8 min 57 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            993             0
ES:             6               0
SES:            3               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            857             0
ES:             267             0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0

I'm keeping a close eye on it, I hope the engineer's found the problem :D.

EDIT: Ugh it's back again, not sure if engineer is still working on it though.

Code: [Select]
Latest 15 minutes time = 12 min 51 sec
FEC: 0 1
CRC: 659 0
ES: 148 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 0 9
CRC: 28 5
ES: 12 3
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
LOM: 0 0

EDIT 2: Engineer has been. Discovered for some reason that the engineers can't call my giffgaff mobile from their mobile even though my number works from other lines fine (e.g. house phone, another mobile). Odd. It's the same engineer from my first SFI visit. Anyway, he spent a while re-doing a joint that apparently had a fault on (40v on?). We spent a while looking at the statistics from the Zyxel, oddly he couldn't get any errors to show up from his mobile (Yukon?) even though the Zyxel was clearly showing them. I mentioned they disappeared for a short time after the work he did but then came back. I also mentioned the overnight pattern and he thinks it may well be REIN. He suggested, to be certain it's nothing in the house, to turn off everything at the fuse box and power the Zyxel via my UPS for a short time just to see if the errors are still coming in. I will try this tomorrow morning and then tell AAISP the result of that, after which the next step will most likely be sending a REIN engineer.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 04:54:40 PM by Ixel »
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