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Author Topic: My line might have issues?  (Read 27756 times)

Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #75 on: October 21, 2017, 07:08:40 PM »

"No" is the one word answer to your question. I believe that you mentioned, earlier in this thread, something about a wet joint? I suspect that the circuit is borderline in terms of usability.

The current A&A modem of choice is now the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10D, which they are selling for £60.  :-X

Thanks! Since that's their choice for the modem I will see what they say on Monday, who knows... maybe they'll suggest I either buy that or maybe I'll be loaned one to test for a time. I don't mind buying it as long as I know it'll help with progressing the fault to being sorted eventually.

Yes I did mention a joint in a manhole on the main road that the installing engineer mentioned. However the SFI engineer I had yesterday when I mentioned this he didn't seem to understand or acknowledge it really, I felt.
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NewtronStar

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #76 on: October 21, 2017, 07:26:08 PM »

Did the SFI engineer not say if there was a fault in that manhole cover it would be noticeable on the telephone side as crackles & hiss or something like that on post 67
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 07:43:53 PM by NewtronStar »
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #77 on: October 21, 2017, 08:28:07 PM »

Did the SFI engineer not say if there was a fault in that manhole cover it would be noticeable on the telephone side as crackles & hiss or something like that on post 67

He did mention that yeah, I can't say I've noticed that though when periodically checking the dial tone or such sadly.

Engineer notes, for the curious:
****** Checklist questions *******
On site contact name - [redacted]
Is EU setup and modem OK ? - Yes
Is VDSL modem connected via microfilters (Offer to fit SSFP) ? - No
Is VDSL modem in sync ? - Yes
Are SSFP and connections OK ? - Yes
What was the result of the PQT at SSFP ? - Pass - Green
Has any star wiring been isolated on the network side of the SSFP ? (N/A if star wiring not present) ? - N/A
After the star wiring is isolated, is sync speed at NTE OK ? - N/A
Is EU physical set up OK (PC/Router wiring connected correctly) ? - Yes
Does on site contact confirm that this is the normal set up of their equipment ? - Yes
Have you been provided with CP's test page account details ? - No
Are you able to connect to CP's homepage from customer router using end user PC ? - Yes
Have you confirmed results with on site contact ? - Yes
Did a joint meet with CP's engineer take place ? - No
Is VDSL modem powered up on arrival at EU premises ? - Yes
Can you connect to an external site from EU equipment ? - Yes
*** End of checklist questions ***

Service ok when I was on site. Line test OK PQT passed. Test and demo to [redacted].
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kitz

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #78 on: October 22, 2017, 11:16:51 AM »

What's your hlog like now?  Ive just seen one that you posted a while ago which looks rather strange. 

It's not a usual sharp dip like you'd expect to see for a bridge tap, but those very slight waves could indicate signal reflection on the line. Using the standard calculation for a bridge tap (160/MHz) then the start point is somewhere around 320 feet. Because its so slight it may not be picked up on most tests, and tbh Im not even sure if Openreach would class that as a full blown fault....  but it could indicate a copper impedance mismatch, which in turn would cause the line to throw errors.   
The echo effect may show up on a JDSU which could give the engineer a more exact reading for distance. If he can see it on the JDSU then it may give an indication where to look, there's several things that could cause this; but in view of how small the bumps are IMHO slight corrosion on a joint is probably most likely,  but it can even be caused by damp weather.

It's looking like one of those stupid faults which is hard to track down until the line begins to get real bad.  I sympathise, been there, done it. Seen an engineer try work his butt off to track down the problem because standard tests pass.

It's very important to remember that hlog log is a capture of a moment in time, so you'd need to see this over several hlogs before drawing more definite conclusions.

Others may have some thoughts on impedance mismatch and what could be a small signal reflection showing in the lower tones from that one hlog.
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #79 on: October 22, 2017, 11:32:28 AM »

What's your hlog like now?  Ive just seen one that you posted a while ago which looks rather strange. 

It's not a usual sharp dip like you'd expect to see for a bridge tap, but those very slight waves could indicate signal reflection on the line. Using the standard calculation for a bridge tap (160/MHz) then the start point is somewhere around 320 feet. Because its so slight it may not be picked up on most tests, and tbh Im not even sure if Openreach would class that as a full blown fault....  but it could indicate a copper impedance mismatch, which in turn would cause the line to throw errors.   
The echo effect may show up on a JDSU which could give the engineer a more exact reading for distance. If he can see it on the JDSU then it may give an indication where to look, there's several things that could cause this; but in view of how small the bumps are IMHO slight corrosion on a joint is probably most likely,  but it can even be caused by damp weather.

It's looking like one of those stupid faults which is hard to track down until the line begins to get real bad.  I sympathise, been there, done it. Seen an engineer try work his butt off to track down the problem because standard tests pass.

It's very important to remember that hlog log is a capture of a moment in time, so you'd need to see this over several hlogs before drawing more definite conclusions.

Others may have some thoughts on impedance mismatch and what could be a small signal reflection showing in the lower tones from that one hlog.

Here's the Hlog and QLN from the very recent and brief test with the HG612:
https://imgur.com/a/awWlv

Maybe I'm wrong but they look fine? You're right I think, it's going to be one of these faults which are difficult to trace until the problem gets worse.

I'm waiting to see what AAISP have to say hopefully tomorrow. I'm going to suggest whether I should buy a Zyxel VMG1312-B10D to AAISP tomorrow as well since that's their default choice of supplied router/modem so if there's a problem with that too then there's no arguing that there's something not right about my line and will hopefully give them the ammunition they need to get Openreach to look into this further. I mean I could use the DrayTek Vigor 2860Vac but why should I be limited to only being able to safely use one modem unless it rains heavy :P?
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kitz

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #80 on: October 22, 2017, 11:49:03 AM »

Hmmm yes hlog is perfect in your latest set.

It is this one which raised my eyebrow.
https://imgur.com/cpHhwvR
Note the small bumps in D1 on that graph which indicate a small amount of signal reflection.   If its only there sometimes (for eg when its damp) then it makes it hard to track down.  :'(


 
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kitz

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #81 on: October 22, 2017, 12:04:32 PM »

Quote
I'm going to suggest whether I should buy a Zyxel VMG1312-B10D

Personally I'd go for an B10A - but thats just my choice.   The B10A's are more expensive but they do have an internal noise filter and a slightly better chipset.    My router of choice is a VMG8324-B10A, which despite me being on an ECI cab runs far better than any other modem on my line. 

I do have a VMG1312-B10D as my backup modem.  Now't wrong with the B10D's & its on a par or just slightly better than the HG612's, but the B10A's do have an edge because of the internal noise filter.
When I had line probs and was getting lots of errors, I put the VMG1312-B10D on to check it wasnt my modem at fault. 
On my line the VMG1312-B10D gave slightly less errors than the HG612 (which admittedly I only left that on for a few mins)..  but in turn I ended up putting my VMG8324-B10A back on as that was without doubt best of the bunch.

AAISP used to sell the VMG1312-B10A, I wonder if they may have an old one knocking around which they could offer to loan you... if you either promise to return or purchase if it works out well?

*caveat.   
Not all lines run the same and what is best for one line may not necessarily be best for all. 
There are a couple of people who say the B10A's didn't work as well on their line, but on the whole most people do find they do outperform most other modems regardless of which type of cab.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 12:07:38 PM by kitz »
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #82 on: October 22, 2017, 12:21:23 PM »

Hmmm yes hlog is perfect in your latest set.

It is this one which raised my eyebrow.
https://imgur.com/cpHhwvR
Note the small bumps in D1 on that graph which indicate a small amount of signal reflection.   If its only there sometimes (for eg when its damp) then it makes it hard to track down.  :'(

Oh yeah, forgot about that one :P. Yeah those bumps. That's from the first line. I've just plugged the HG612 into that line and here's the latest Hlog and QLN from that one. No bumps at the moment though.

https://imgur.com/a/bOGdV

I've started submitting data from that line to MDWS again for now. If I end up getting the Zyxel or putting the HG612 on the new line (depends what AAISP say tomorrow) then I'll start submitting data from the new line instead. Just a matter of waiting now to see what happens tomorrow or the day after.

Regarding the B10A, I didn't realise that so thanks for that info! I'll suggest B10A instead tomorrow then or maybe I'll just buy one, not sure yet. I'll see if Amazon prime has it as I could get it tomorrow if so, just need to decide. Would be nice if AAISP had a spare to loan for testing but I wouldn't expect an ISP to loan me a modem for testing so can understand if they don't. I have quite a few spare modems now, I think I should try to get rid of a few of them haha.
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ejs

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #83 on: October 22, 2017, 12:46:58 PM »

I've moved the modem outside the cabinet and used a short cable (that cable on eBay for those with problems or w/e, with that ferrite bead integrated), with a micro-filter. Not sure if it's the cable, the micro-filter or merely just the way the line has now become but the Hlog graph looks different.

https://i.imgur.com/cpHhwvR.png

A nice wave like line on the first downstream band.

I'll try switching to a simple flat RJ11 cable to see if it disappears, then if not I'll try switching back to the MK3 SSFP. Interesting though.

EDIT: The mentioned cable from eBay caused that wave like line it seems, now it's smooth with a flat RJ11 cable. FEC errors are still there however, in a large amount. I hope the engineer decides to try a 'circuit recalc' and it should hopefully reveal the stupidly high amount of error seconds I had (especially with the amount of FEC errors I'm getting still). On the other hand, re-syncing made my line attenuation return to normal.

I thought it was concluded that the waves on the HLog graph were caused by that "special" modem lead.
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #84 on: October 22, 2017, 01:14:23 PM »

I thought it was concluded that the waves on the HLog graph were caused by that "special" modem lead.

I'm using that 'special' cable still and it hasn't done it since then.
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j0hn

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #85 on: October 22, 2017, 06:20:22 PM »

AAISP switched from the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A to the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10D because of some issues with the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A that Zyxel couldn't or wouldn't fix (ipv6 related I believe).
However all the issues only affected this using the device as a combined modem/router. None of them affected the device on bridge mode.
If you're going to use it on bridge mode them I would also recommend the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A.
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vic0239

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #86 on: October 22, 2017, 06:28:24 PM »

AAISP used to sell the VMG1312-B10A, I wonder if they may have an old one knocking around which they could offer to loan you... if you either promise to return or purchase if it works out well?
I think they have sold out of the B10A. When I was looking for a spare recently I enquired, but was told they were all sold. :(

They are pretty accommodating though, once having sent me two B10Ds on sale or return which I did return as they didnít perform as well on my lines.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 06:32:10 PM by vic0239 »
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vic0239

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #87 on: October 22, 2017, 06:33:35 PM »

If you're going to use it on bridge mode them I would also recommend the ZyXEL VMG1312-B10A.
Iíd second that.
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Ixel

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #88 on: October 22, 2017, 06:38:27 PM »

Thanks for the replies all. I've decided based on reviews/comments, the fact AAISP originally supplied the B10A and the fact it has an internal noise filter, to order one. I will be using it as a modem only as my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter will always be the router. As it's Amazon Prime it's due to arrive tomorrow, if that also produces similar results to the HG612 and ECI /r with LEDE then it's got to be certain something isn't right and might just need persistence before the problem is eventually found and resolved.

I'll update the thread again once I have news.
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ejs

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Re: My line might have issues?
« Reply #89 on: October 22, 2017, 06:47:26 PM »

Without looking at all the stats and graphs, would you actually notice any problem?
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