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Author Topic: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds  (Read 2902 times)

JamesK

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Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« on: August 25, 2017, 06:12:19 PM »

Hi All,
Randomly checked MDWS just now to see the traffic lights for my line not looking healthy at all, which is pretty unusual. Generally my line is very stable.

Looking at the ES and SES graphs there seemed to be a huge burst last night around 9pm and then again today at midday.

There's been no changes in my house, and no roadworks around the route of the line back to the fibre cabinet. The weather has also been fine. So not really sure what could cause such a huge burst of errors.

My profile on MDWS is JamesK.

Question is, with this amount of errors will DLM intervene tonight? I'm hoping not.
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kitz

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2017, 08:31:29 PM »

Your SNRM has been taking a few dips starting at 21:50 which co-coincided with the first batch of errors - indicating some sort of noise being generated on the line.  Could be caused by numerous things I'm afraid.

>> will DLM intervene tonight?

You may be ok  :fingers:
I think BT mostly uses speed profile - although they have also been known to use standard if you have BT TV. 
If you are on Speed 2880 is the magic number for Err Secs & 1440 for Standard.
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JamesK

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2017, 02:02:50 PM »

I thought I'd got away with it as there was no overnight resync notification... then DLM decided to intervene at 13:30. I'm not sure why it did as the ES/SES didn't increase significantly further yesterday.

Quote
This is to let you know that a resync/restart occurred on your line at 13:28 on Saturday 26th August 2017 local time (+/- 1 minute).

Reason: 1 Remote Defect Indicator/DLM

Current Downstream Sync Rate is now 34998kbps @ 7.7db SNRM. Attainable is 46884kbps Current Upstream Sync Rate is now 8558kbps @ 6.0db SNRM. Attainable is  8604kbps as measured at the time of this email.
Not sure what's going on with my line at the moment. A couple of months ago the upstream ES went crazy for no apparent reason, and then settled down. The only change to the property has been having smart gas and electricity meters installed.

My downstream, as measured by speedtest.net is 32.5mbps. Am I at a point where I can raise it with BT? My non-impacted speed estimate is between 45.1 and 34.1. What's the downstream handback threshold? I've never seen that listed on the BT Broadband Availability checker before.

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Chrysalis

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2017, 02:52:06 PM »

image doesnt work bud, try imgur.
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JamesK

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2017, 04:04:56 PM »

Didn't realise Photobucket didn't work anymore... here it is again...

http://imgur.com/a/T2qnO

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Chrysalis

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2017, 04:25:19 PM »

What was the estimate given to you by BT, thats more relevant than the BT wholesale estimate.
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JamesK

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2017, 04:33:18 PM »

I've had Fibre since 2012, I think that was in the days when you just ordered a product. I recontracted with BT a few months ago, but again I don't recall them mentioning a specific minimum speed.


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kitz

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2017, 07:11:13 PM »

I thought I'd got away with it as there was no overnight resync notification... then DLM decided to intervene at 13:30.
Overnight is no longer a foregone conclusion.  As more people have got FTTC the times have extended later on in the day.  Mine is usually about 11am but I have had a couple after lunch and Ive seen someone else report as late as 3:30 in the afternoon.  There is no strict time frame, it may just be down to how many people have DLM changes on that particular day.


Quote
I'm not sure why it did as the ES/SES didn't increase significantly further yesterday.

When I looked last night your traffic lights were showing Red for Standard Profile and Amber for Speed Profile. 
I was hoping that you my be on Speed, but I mentioned both profiles because Ive seen people on BT mention both. 

I'm afraid that once you trigger the threshold DLM will take action regardless if the line stabilises later in the day.   
As the regs on here will no doubt know... its one of my problems with DLM.   I will go through a patch of Err Secs at about 11am sufficient to trigger DLM, I can then clear it, but DLM has already spotted it and will penalise me the next day despite the fact the line threw hardly any more errors for the rest of the day.

 
Quote
Not sure what's going on with my line at the moment. A couple of months ago the upstream ES went crazy for no apparent reason, and then settled down. The only change to the property has been having smart gas and electricity meters installed.

From looking at your SNRM, it would appear something regularly causes a small amount of REIN between 9-10pm each evening.  Its only small causing a loss of about 0.5dB, but it is visible.  For the past couple of days though that 0.5dB loss has increased to 3.5dB and since then its also happening at other times of the day.
Unfortunately REIN is extremely difficult to track down :(

Quote
My downstream, as measured by speedtest.net is 32.5mbps. Am I at a point where I can raise it with BT? My non-impacted speed estimate is between 45.1 and 34.1. What's the downstream handback threshold? I've never seen that listed on the BT Broadband Availability checker before.

To quote something Ive typed elsewhere

The Downstream Handback Threshold is intended to reflect the slowest 10th percentile for a line. This is a figure at which the service is considered totally unacceptable and allows an order to be reversed without charge.


Unfortunately some ISPs - such as Plusnet - appear to be using that figure to be able to raise an intermittent fault and are using it to reflect the MGAL and thus the level at which you can raise a fault.    Ive had this discussion elsewhere, but they wont be moved.  Full paragraph (relating to an 80/20 line) was actually

Quoting the MGALS rate is ISP related ie the slowest 10% of ISP customers with the same headline speed is irrelvant. Headline speed is 80/20. If you fall below the MGAL level then you are allowed to exit without penalty or charge. MGALS may vary from ISP to ISP and is NOT intended to be a threshold level at which you will or wont raise a fault to BT - See OFCOM 2015 Voluntary Code of Practice Broadband Speeds.

The Downstream Handback Threshold is intended to reflect the slowest 10th percentile for a line. This is a figure at which the service is considered totally unacceptable and allows an order to be reversed without charge. Again it is not intended to be a fault threshold level and other factors such as line history should be looked at. Handback rules relate to a line which can be ceased without charge or reverted back to adsl if the line has been investigated by Openreach for under performance.
In cases such as these connection fees, rental charges, cease & early termination fees should be refunded to the EU. See WBC FTTC Handbook.



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The problem is because of crosstalk, the quoted figures do decrease over time, so any figure given in 2012 is no longer going to be applicable, but as a guide you can use the Downstream Line Rate of 34.1 Mbps

What I'm not liking about your line is your sync is currently 34,998 which looks like it may be capped.   The line has been INP 3 for a while, so if it has capped as well as increasing INP to 3.5 that seems a bit harsh for one step.  No-one yet has been able to fathom out what is happening with DLM capping.

You could try raising a fault with BT, you obviously do have something REIN like going on with that line.   The difficulty could be that Openreach turn up and its at a time when the line is OK.    I would definitely keep logging your stats - atm the SNRM is about the only proof that there is something wrong.
I would also do a Quiet Line Test just to make sure you cant hear any noise on the phone line.
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JamesK

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2017, 08:33:48 PM »

Thanks very much for the detailed response Kitz. It's much appreciated. I probably should've searched for information on the Downstream Handback Threshold definition rather than just asking in my post.

I'm on the 80/20 BT Infinity 2 product, so I'd always assumed that was on the Speed profile by default. I don't know if things have changed with BT but trying to get an engineer out in the past has always been a nightmare. Getting past the offshore call centre was horrendous last time I had to complain back in 2013.

http://imgur.com/a/yFndD
I've attached a map of my area. The area in red was the original estate built in the 1930's-ish. Cabinet 6 serves this area. My area in blue was built in 2001/2002 and was also attached to cabinet 6. The area in green was built in 2002/2003, and was connected to a new cabinet, number 53. This still hasn't been FTTC enabled so users in green are stuck with ADSL. I'm approximately 950m from the cabinet, with the cabling running along Green Lanes, into Campion Road and then Bluebell Way. Cabinet 6 is located in the middle of massively overgrown common ground. When FTTC was installed for me the engineer sent was from a different area, and actually couldn't find it, as the grass, etc has grown so tall. It's approximately 50m from any properties.

As a side note NTL enabled the red estate with cable in the 90's. When the new blue estate was built in 01/02 they went to the trouble to extend their network into Campion Road/Great Braitch Lane as there are NTL manholes everywhere, but for some reason never completed the work. No-one seems to be able to get an answer as to why.

When I had fibre installed in 2012 it was ok for a while, and then download speeds dropped off a cliff after about a year. If I recall it was down to 18mb and capped. I posted about it on here at the time. I had horrendous trouble getting BT to come out. When they did I got lucky and got an excellent engineer. Not only did he fix a fault in the road. The cables housed in a black clamshell device underneath a BT manhole were all trapped in the housing. He fixed that and then reset DLM. He then also discovered I had a 10mb loss in speed with the internal wiring in the house. So we installed the modem in my kitchen, which had the closest socket to where the BT cable entered he property. I then ran Ethernet from there to our living room, which is the best location for the router. Since then the line has been relatively fine. I've always had a degree of interleaving. INP has always been 3 and the interleaving depth has varied from 700-900. I put that down to the distance to the cabinet. Having always had speeds of around 40mb it's never been a problem. I don't know if it helps my issues that the cabinet is ECI.

I've no real idea what could be causing the SNRM to dip at around 9-10pm, unless it's related to street lighting coming on. This is a relatively quiet housing estate with nothing else of note near to us. Obviously if it's now happening during the day it won't be related to street lighting. I'm sure the electrics in the house are good. They were tested when the smart meters were installed, and again a year previously when we had a new kitchen installed and a new circuit needed to be installed.

I'm not looking forward to raising it with BT after my last experiences with them. I'm hoping their customer service has improved since then.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2017, 10:16:04 PM »

Large dips on the DS snrm like you have could be down to massive electrical arcing can only equate what your getting is like Lighting strikes just above your house or within the house and close to the modem it's just way to intense for my liking.

If it was a wide area event the DLM would not have taken action on your line sounds more local to me.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 10:41:34 PM by NewtronStar »
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JamesK

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2017, 10:41:05 PM »

Is it possible the new smart meter is the problem? I had no issues before it was installed. Admittedly I'd not uploaded to MDWS for a couple of months before as the line had been so stable it didn't seem worth it. The modem is less than 3 metres from the smart meter.

It seems there have been issues with smart meters...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/5THjNWMjNdKyWwCXt48HJNB/smart-meter-installations


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NewtronStar

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2017, 10:48:25 PM »

We have had a electric smart meter installed since 2009 and it does not interfere with VDSL that I can see though its 17 meters away from the modem.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 10:50:43 PM by NewtronStar »
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PhilipD

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2017, 02:14:30 PM »

Hi

We had a smart meter installed as well and absolutely no difference, my broadband continued on a UPS for the duration of the meter installation and SNR didn't vary before during or afterwards.

Now of course the smart meter installation could be faulty, although the regular timings suggest it's something happening by a schedule.  If it is something like arching electrical connections you could try tuning an AM radio to to quiet spot and see if you here anything around the trigger time.

It could be something like this near by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMbN9nb3qyk (although usually they shouldn't disconnect in quite such a manner)  do you have any sub-stations looking similar close by that might have an automatic switching of grid power at those times?

It could just as easily be a thermostat or switch in your house arching, they do a similar thing sometimes although on a much smaller scale.

Regards

Phil

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JamesK

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2017, 03:53:02 PM »

On reflection I doubt it's the smart meter install. I stopped monitoring during May as the stats on my line were so boring, there didn't seem much point. It was only out of curiosity that I restarted them after the smart meter install as I wanted to see what the HG612 resync'd at. I got quite a surprise to see so many upstream ES... these ceased after about a month, and then the downstream went crazy on Friday. Looking back on previous stats the SNRM dips were happening for quite some time, certainly predating the smart meter install by several months

At the bottom of the next door neighbours back garden is a building that has signage relating to the Electricity supplier:
http://imgur.com/a/UP2ZN.

In the 5 years we've lived here I've never once seen anyone enter the building, so I'm not sure what's in there.

At the moment the thermostat in the house (Nest) is turned so low that the heating will never come on. The hot water is set to constant, so the boiler, pump, etc do come on at random times. I may put that on a schedule so that I can see if the SNRM dips occur during the timeframes that the boiler is permitted to fire up. It's a new system that's less than 2 years old, so it should all be fine.

Short of turning off electrical sockets, is there a way I can easily test items/sockets to see if they're causing a problem?
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PhilipD

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Re: Huge Burst of Errored Seconds
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2017, 04:41:15 PM »

Hi

That looks like an electricity sub station, typically they are always on, they shouldn't be switching on and off (as it probably connects directly to your power supply) and shouldn't be doing much on a schedule I shouldn't have thought.  Other potential sources are things like sewage pumps, these are often hidden underground and can come on and off by themselves at certain times or randomly depending on the level of sewage.  Often you can spot these by a small green box (about shoe box size) along a verge, this contains access to the electrical connections etc leading down to a pump underground, and that box may be the only give away.  Similar electronic valves and pumps can exist for clean water so they can reroute supplies remotely.

Essentially you can drive yourself mad trying to find a source.  The only easy thing to rule out is something in your own home by turning everything off apart from the modem and perhaps the PC monitoring it. 

People suggest walking around with an AM radio tuned between stations and holding it up against electrical items in your home, but essentially every electrical item will sound noisy, so it doesn't always help except make you suspect anything that plugs in.

It could be some electrical item someone is using that is faulty, there have been posts before about a neighbours faulty TV or similar knocking out broadband for people when it was in use.  Unfortunately the technology used is flaky due to using telephone cable never designed for data, everyone's connection is there by the grace of god really, and so it takes very little to upset things.

Regards

Phil
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