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Author Topic: FTTP  (Read 7111 times)

niemand

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2017, 06:47:07 PM »

As for no copper fine but make allowances for those who only want a land line and no broadband, no one should have to take broadband just to get a working phone.

They don't.

https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/super-fastfibreaccess/fibrevoiceaccess/fibrevoiceaccess.do
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broadstairs

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2017, 09:37:39 PM »

What I read there was that you can have a normal analogue phone connected to fibre, but you have to have fibre. Now can you order only the phone service without having the internet connected as well and is it cost effective without the internet? Nothing there suggests you can have this fibre ONLY for a phone connection.

Stuart
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ISP:Vodafone Router:Vodafone Wi-Fi hub FTTP

niemand

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2017, 09:58:30 PM »

I'm not sure I understand.

In new build areas where it's FTTP everywhere it's not about whether someone has FTTP for a phone connection, all units have FTTP anyway. The FTTP is fulfilling the telco USO so there's no more of a requirement to order broadband than there is on copper.

Financial viability is irrelevant as it's a greenfield install.
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j0hn

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2017, 10:53:14 PM »

Nothing there suggests you can have this fibre ONLY for a phone connection.
You certainly can. If you live on a new estate with fibre only, no copper at all, the ordering process is just the same. Instead of an OpenReach engineer coming and installing an NTE5 they will install an ONT. A standard home phone connects to the ONT.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2017, 12:14:36 AM »

Afraid the point of FTTP is lost on me.   

It's nice to have a few 10's of Mbps to watch iTunes movies or Netflix but, anytime in the foreseeable future, why would a typical user need 100's of Mbps or Gbps? 

If we don't need it, then FTTP is over-engineering, imho.  And over-engineering always carries a financial cost  of added expense for problems that don't need solving.

Also, consider the safety issues.   You are supposed to be able to dial 999 to report your house is on fire, even if that fire has already cut the power, using a line-powered phone.  How, exactly, would a phone be powered over fibre?
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burakkucat

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2017, 12:25:03 AM »

Also, consider the safety issues.   You are supposed to be able to dial 999 to report your house is on fire, even if that fire has already cut the power, using a line-powered phone.  How, exactly, would a phone be powered over fibre?

The ONT is fitted with a battery back-up and that is deemed sufficient, by Ofcom.
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Black Sheep

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2017, 07:30:41 AM »

Afraid the point of FTTP is lost on me.   

It's nice to have a few 10's of Mbps to watch iTunes movies or Netflix but, anytime in the foreseeable future, why would a typical user need 100's of Mbps or Gbps? 

If we don't need it, then FTTP is over-engineering, imho.  And over-engineering always carries a financial cost  of added expense for problems that don't need solving.

Also, consider the safety issues.   You are supposed to be able to dial 999 to report your house is on fire, even if that fire has already cut the power, using a line-powered phone.  How, exactly, would a phone be powered over fibre?

I suppose it comes under the banner 'Future-proofing', 7LM. It certainly makes sense to cable all new-sites in fibre knowing what we do now, about the capabilities of copper/ali metallic cable.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2017, 08:33:27 AM »

Trouble with future-proofing is, it involves second-guessing the future.   And guesses are often wrong.

My own house, 90s built, was 'future-proofed' by having phone sockets in every room, including the hall, landing and kitchen.   Somebody spent money doing that, what a waste it has turned out to be.

If I were to make a guess as to best way to future-proof a new build, it would be copious lan cabling.  It'd be interesting to know if these FTTP new builds are getting that too?
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Chrysalis

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2017, 09:05:10 AM »

fttp = over engineering?
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c6em

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2017, 10:02:51 AM »



If I were to make a guess as to best way to future-proof a new build, it would be copious lan cabling.  It'd be interesting to know if these FTTP new builds are getting that too?

Oh I've seen a house (it was a rebuild job) all cabled up with LAN cabling in a Gigaclear FTTP area
I'd had a quick glance in the basement where it all ended up
Yup - much as I thought it would be to make it as cheap and as shoddy as possible - all CCA rather than proper Copper LAN cable
I said absolutely nothing - I thought it wiser to keep my mouth shut.
The house has lots of steel and also aluminum foiled insulation in it so I'd guess the wifi reach is dire as well.

Round here rebuilds are all the rage.  Take an old house ,multiply extended and mucked around over the decades.
Unsuitable in many ways to modern living and with dire insulation properties, microscopic kitchens etc
Importantly 'new' builds do not have to pay any VAT on them.
This also applies when the original house is totally demolished including the foundations.
So it becomes cheaper to knock 'em down and rebuild from scratch rather than trying to renovate/improve.
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Ronski

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2017, 11:12:39 AM »

Afraid the point of FTTP is lost on me.   

It's nice to have a few 10's of Mbps to watch iTunes movies or Netflix but, anytime in the foreseeable future, why would a typical user need 100's of Mbps or Gbps? 

If we don't need it, then FTTP is over-engineering, imho.  And over-engineering always carries a financial cost  of added expense for problems that don't need solving.

Also, consider the safety issues.   You are supposed to be able to dial 999 to report your house is on fire, even if that fire has already cut the power, using a line-powered phone.  How, exactly, would a phone be powered over fibre?

The amount of time you've spent on these forums I'm very surprised by what you've said above, it's so backwards looking.

FTTP does not suffer from distance, corrosion, line quality, rein, crosstalk etc. So therefore if Fred Bloggs orders an 80/20 service that's what he gets, not 47/6 like I do. Here at work we orderd 40/10, but we get 38/6, on FTTP we'd get what we ordered.

You may not require more than 30Mbps connection, but many families, or businesses do, including those who work from home.

Finally copper lines (or aluminum) are struggling at the moment with all their problems, so why would it make sense to install an inferior copper system compared to a fibre system which will do a 21st Century job for many years to come? Which will be able to keep up with 4K TV streaming, or even 8K in a few years time, and the numerous other things all sorts of different people use their connections for???
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Bowdon

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2017, 11:14:38 AM »

Those of us in the 80's and 90s starting off on the slowest modems have seen a major increase in resources needed as more powerful technology comes out. It seems to be a natural step that people make big resource intense games or media before having second thoughts about compression later. So the data requirement will always be increasing.

I suspect that eventually we'll have a "cable" system like the US when it comes to television services. This will need a high and consistant data streaming system, especially if people are already eyeing up 4K technology. The network will have to be able to feed a 4K tv signal to anyone who wants it. This can only be achieved by fibre.

On the mobile situation. A lot of people in europe and the US already don't use their landline for calls. Unless they have dsl services then some don't have any landline.

https://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2008/06/landlines-one-quarter-of-europeans-go-without/

Quote
According to a broad study released by the European Union today, Europeans are hanging up on landlines in favor of mobile phones and VoIP.

The EU spoke with over 26,000 people across 27 countries in the EU during November and December last year to find that 24 percent of European households have canceled their landline phone service in favor of mobile phones. According to the study, 22 percent of European households are using PC software like Skype for making calls over the Internet, with citizens in Latvia (58 percent), Lithuania (51), the Czech Republic (50), Poland (49), and Bulgaria (46) leading the pack.

That was from 2008, 9 years ago. Imagine how that figure would have increased.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/12/more-than-half-of-american-homes-dont-use-a-landline/266675/

Quote
We all knew this day was coming: According to a new report from the Centers for Disease Control (which tracks these sorts of things for its phone surveys), more than half of American households (51.7 percent) don't regularly use a landline phone. The majority of those (35.8 percent) don't have a land line at all and another 15.9 percent have the line, but say they don't use them very often if ever.

That's from 2012. The US already more than HALF don't use a landline. It'll be well over that now.

Openreach and others need to position themselves to building broadband and broadcasting services. That will be the future.
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Chrysalis

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2017, 01:36:43 PM »

ronski put it well its  copper serving broadband thats over engineered as dsl is very complex technology to make analogue audio cables work for data
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2017, 05:48:52 PM »

I'm not denying that existing FTTC needs to be improved.  Many people, self included, struggle to reach any more than 20s of Mbps, and that's not enough.   These are the people I think BT should be trying to help.

But this (subject of this thread) is about a new, ground-up, development.   Surely all it would take would be careful positioning of cabinets, to ensure everybody there gets perfectly good FTTC?

I wonder if the real issue might be, for ground-up new developments (whole new towns), Fibre might a actually be as cheap, or cheaper than copper.   Leaving the consumer to foot the bill for additional costs of terminal equipment with backup batteries and I think (may stand corrected) increased energy costs vs FTTC modems?

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Chrysalis

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Re: FTTP
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2017, 06:31:14 PM »

fibre for data is decades old tech
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