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Author Topic: "Downstream Handback Threshold"  (Read 6892 times)

WWWombat

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2017, 09:16:39 PM »

Are engineer installs supposed not to be impacted?

Yes, but it happens in an indirect fashion.

The ISP chooses what estimate to use when it wants to entice your business, and tells you what your minimum speed will be. This minimum becomes part of your contract with them, and determines the point at which they are willing to send an engineer .... which of course means that Openreach have to be willing to send the engineer on their behalf.

For example, last time I checked at least, Plusnet offered the clean range, TalkTalk used the impacted range, and AAISP offered the entire top-clean to bottom-impacted range.

The way the ISP makes Openreach use the right threshold is down to the way they order the service in the first place - with or without an engineer installation.

What is much less clear is how ISPs work when you migrate-in a working setup. But it isn't clear how the "handback" procedure works after a migration either.
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Black Sheep

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2017, 09:36:04 PM »

For info .... there has been unprecedented focus on the FTTC 'self-install' product by OR's hierarchy.

I won't go into the why's and where-fore's, but I can say that there is no time-limit as such on this product anymore ...... if there is a line fault condition, we will endeavour to clear that fault condition whilst we are attending the PCP work.
Also, until very recently the tasks would carry a header that the EU must not be contacted, and/or their premises visited ... that too has now done a 180 degree flip.

As these tasks are for the most-part non-appointed, of course internal bridged taps will go unchallenged, but if the EU is present and our final 'GEA Test' (conducted on our i-phone after the PCP work has been completed), reveals a 'bridged tap', then we will give it a cursory look-see. Basically, if it's a straightforward fit of an SSFP at the NTE, then we'll do it.

Yes, yes, yes ..... there's grey areas to be had here (there always is with bespoke work)  but whatever ones thoughts are, it is aimed at being a positive step forward for the EU and ISP.

 :)
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Zico

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2017, 10:23:15 PM »

My recent line and FTTC provision were carried out separately due to a mix up. The FTTC was only activated after a fault was reported and a separate Openreach engineer turned up (turned out that the port wasn't connected back at the cab by the original MJ Quinn's engineer who didn't fit the phone line either).

I'm definitely in the impacted range on my line and have no other wiring than the drop wire installed by Openreach on the 2nd visit. http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,20691.0.html
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Black Sheep

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2017, 07:40:10 AM »

Hi Zico .... your experience is a slightly different product to the 'Self install' or 'Managed install' FTTC product .... the latter two only available if you have a working line already.*

Your own product was what we term a 'Sim provide' (Simultaneous) ..... whereby there are two separate tasks, one for the actual install at your premises, and one for the Cab-only FTTC work.

We often see the two tasks being 'separated' by the work-manager flow allocators, in order to maximise skill-sets on the ground. Pretty much anyone can perform a FTTC8 task (Cab only work), so they will 'Pin' the work to those single/dual-skilled engineers who may be struggling for work ???  :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2017, 06:19:38 PM »


The obvious scenario that Openreach wanted to avoid when self-install was introduced: They didn't want to make it cheaper for punters (by allowing them to not pay for an engineer), to only then have to offer an engineer callout free-of-charge in order to fix the problem that only exists because the punter didn't want to pay for an engineer. Less income, higher costs ... not a good business move.

What was needed, alongside the option for self-install, was a lesser guarantee that would avoid any extra demand on Openreach-funded engineer callouts (or "truck rolls" as the Americans call them).

The lower range is the method that Openreach have chosen to apply a lesser guarantee. I'm not so sure it was the best way - it leads to inconsistencies if you get an engineer install on day 1, but migrate to a self-install supplier; why should a lesser guarantee apply in these circumstances?

For myself, I will always choose an engineer installation, with an ISP that quotes their minimum speed using the clean range. That way, if faults happen in the future, I'll be able to get an engineer involved at the higher speed rather than the lower one.

well usually its the CP not the punter that decides self install or not, do any isps even offer engineer install now on vdsl?

we have to remember when talking about wholesale costs, willingness to pay is driven by CPs not consumers.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 06:04:18 AM by Chrysalis »
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Black Sheep

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2017, 06:41:44 PM »

That's a fair point ^^^ ............... I have had conversations with EU's in the past that said a 'Managed Install' was not offered to them.

These ad-hoc convo's took place during the subsequent engineering visit, to put right the bridged-tap effects of the 'Self-install' product.  :) :)
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Zico

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2017, 08:41:13 PM »

Hi Zico .... your experience is a slightly different product to the 'Self install' or 'Managed install' FTTC product .... the latter two only available if you have a working line already.*

Your own product was what we term a 'Sim provide' (Simultaneous) ..... whereby there are two separate tasks, one for the actual install at your premises, and one for the Cab-only FTTC work.

We often see the two tasks being 'separated' by the work-manager flow allocators, in order to maximise skill-sets on the ground. Pretty much anyone can perform a FTTC8 task (Cab only work), so they will 'Pin' the work to those single/dual-skilled engineers who may be struggling for work ???  :)

Yes, my service was supposed to be under a simultaneous provide but with the hitch. The third engineer visit (to resolve the FTTC) was as a result of a fault log call rather than linked back to the sim provide.
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kitz

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2017, 09:39:24 PM »

Mine was supposed be be a Managed Install as I needed the master socket relocating due to there being no power socket near to the original NTE.   
It was a Quinns contractor that arrived to do mine.  They don't have any tools to check the line and as far as they are concerned, if it sync's then job done.   They turn up with nothing much more than a vdsl SSFP and a screw-driver.

Guy didn't even have an LJU3 on his van to be able to turn what was the old master socket into a secondary, so did a botch job removing my Clarity dsl filtered NTE5A faceplate and replacing it with the top part of an old NTE5 he'd ripped out of a previous house and the bottom part of the front of an SSFP.
He then backwired what was an old LJU1, stuck a SSFP right in front of the desk drawer because it was next to a power socket which meant I couldn't even open the drawer any more.      Openreach had to come out and do it properly.  :no:

Wonder how many more like this slip through the net?   If I hadnt have known better - nor for the fact he'd located the SSFP in front of the drawer, then that could quite easily have got through.    I still on occasion see an MJ Quinns van around here, last time pretty recently parked by a PCP.
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