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Author Topic: "Downstream Handback Threshold"  (Read 6408 times)

Oldjim

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"Downstream Handback Threshold"
« on: January 16, 2017, 02:53:52 PM »

Taken from DSL Checker - what is it
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Jim
Plusnet

Dray

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 03:11:22 PM »

In the notes below the results table it says
Quote
In order to be eligible for handback, downstream speed should be less than Downstream Handback Threshold values.
So to my mind, the question is what is handback?
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Sheepie

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 04:01:48 PM »

Looks like it's for G.fast, probaly the point at which the line is no longer suitable for g.fast and can be regraded back (at no cost to customer)?

OR-32776 / ORCE-92282
G.Fast
Downstream handback threshold (10th percentile) on eMLC
(to display the handback threshold on eMLC and use it to
judge whether a line is eligible for handback in T2R)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 04:52:44 PM by Sheepie »
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CarlT

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 05:52:16 PM »

10th Percentile.

When ordering GEA-FTTC, you may cancel within 90 calendar days of installation if the line speed degrades to the point of being significantly lower than the speed estimate provided at the point of sale and, having raised a request for investigation, we are unable to resolve the issue.

In this case, you can request reimbursement for the connection, rental and cease charges and you won’t have to pay any early termination charges. We will not reimburse any event charges you may have incurred as part of the provision or investigation process. This is the 90 day rule as in section 4.

We define “significantly lower” as not meeting the 10th percentile speed for lines with the same line characteristics (dB loss when calculated at 300kHz) when the line is operating on the Dynamic Line Management (DLM) “Speed” policy. The 10th percentile speeds for each line are published on the Range of Values file on the BT Wholesale.com website.
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WiFi: Nighthawk® AX12 RAX120
Routing: Mikrotik CCR2004-1G-12S+2XS
Switching: Mikrotik 2 * CRS305-1G-4S-IN, 2 * CRS309-1G-8S+; 1 * CSS326-24G-2S+RM
Exchange: Wakefield
ISP: BT Full Fibre 900. Zen Full Fibre 900. Faelix FTTP 300

Dray

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 06:38:08 PM »

So the Downstream Handback Threshold shown is the 10th percentile speed for the line, which is the speed that the slowest 10% of lines of similar characteristics achieve?
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CarlT

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 09:11:49 PM »

That's what the last paragraph says.
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WiFi: Nighthawk® AX12 RAX120
Routing: Mikrotik CCR2004-1G-12S+2XS
Switching: Mikrotik 2 * CRS305-1G-4S-IN, 2 * CRS309-1G-8S+; 1 * CSS326-24G-2S+RM
Exchange: Wakefield
ISP: BT Full Fibre 900. Zen Full Fibre 900. Faelix FTTP 300

Dray

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2017, 10:14:29 PM »

I'm happy I understood it then  :)
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Ronski

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renluop

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2017, 07:16:54 PM »

This not a rant. It's just me with my waffle iron. ::)

From doing a check on what my address is forecast to achieve, 20 min. clean, and what my daughter is forecast, 60 min. it seems that the clean hand back Downstream Handback Threshold is about 90% of the lower clean figure, whilst it is say 72% of the lower impacted figure.

Why is it 90% for one and 72% for the other? Do they check the line for impacted condition before the change from ADSL to VDSL. Hypothetically, were my line found to be impacted the threshold would be lower than what I can get now, so I could end up with additional cost/month for very minimal benefit, or worse.
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renluop

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2017, 04:36:37 PM »

Although no one thought to, was able to, or wanted to reply to my post immediately above :-\ :), I was interested in two posts by WWWombat in today's Think Braodband newsletter, part of which I take the liberty of posting.
Quote
The clean/impacted statement should perhaps be thought of as "proven clean" vs "suspected impacted".

If you buy a self-install service, then BT are only willing to support your service at the "suspect impacted" level, because they do not know if your line is faulty or not.
If you buy an engineer-install, that engineer will perform the tests (and any fixes) so that BT are happy that your line has a clean bill of health and been "proven clean". They will then assure speeds from the higher range.

So the speed used in the estimate will depend on the installation option you choose.

On the assumption that what WWW, who appears a very knowledgeable member, is right, ISTM that other than for persons, who can receive higher speeds impacted, the Handback 'guarantee' is of little worth.

Maybe I'm stupid, but am I? Fire away! :shoot:
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jelv

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2017, 08:41:50 AM »

Searching before I started a new topic I found this one.

What I wanted to ask is, what is the point of the handback threshold figure on clean? If someone's download falls below that figure and complained OpenReach are just going to point to the impacted figure and tell them to go away. The user has no way to prove that their line is not impacted and that the higher figure should apply.
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adrianw

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2017, 08:54:08 AM »

Searching before I started a new topic I found this one.

What I wanted to ask is, what is the point of the handback threshold figure on clean? If someone's download falls below that figure and complained OpenReach are just going to point to the impacted figure and tell them to go away. The user has no way to prove that their line is not impacted and that the higher figure should apply.

Are engineer installs supposed not to be impacted?
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burakkucat

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2017, 06:37:59 PM »

Are engineer installs supposed not to be impacted?

Yes. The logic is --

Engineer Install --> Not Impacted
Self Install     --> Impacted
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RealAleMadrid

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2017, 08:03:32 PM »

I don't think it is quite so black and white as that. An engineer install should be deemed not impacted as checks should be made for poor line quality and local bridge taps but I very much doubt that all engineers do these tests as they are usually under time pressure or may not even know they should be doing them. On the other hand my self install is very unlikely to be impacted as my drop wire goes directly into the master socket and there are no extensions.

My modem stats seem to confirm my analysis of the situation. ;D

# xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 31537 Kbps, Downstream rate = 75648 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 79999 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        7.2             16.4
Attn(dB):        12.2            0.0
Pwr(dBm):        13.0           -2.6

Errors:-

Since Link time = 39 days 2 hours 12 min 59 sec
FEC:            220659          93352
CRC:            0               6334
ES:             0               5652
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
#

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WWWombat

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Re: "Downstream Handback Threshold"
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2017, 09:06:21 PM »

I don't think it is quite so black and white as that.

It might not be nowadays, but it certainly started out that way. In fact, the two ranges only appeared when Openreach brought out the option for self-install. For me, at least, the old single range (when only engineer installations were available) mapped directly into the clean range.

An engineer install should be deemed not impacted as checks should be made for poor line quality and local bridge taps but I very much doubt that all engineers do these tests as they are usually under time pressure or may not even know they should be doing them.

The installation guys I have had (all Openreach) told me that they have to run the tests. The installation cannot be closed off without test results.

In addition, IIRC, line tests had already been performed before they turned up.

On the other hand my self install is very unlikely to be impacted as my drop wire goes directly into the master socket and there are no extensions.

The determination of clean or impacted has nothing to do with whether the line is actually clean or actually impacted. Modem statistics are, unfortunately, irrelevant.

It is about whether Openreach can trust that it can be classified one way or the other. It is all about the guarantee that comes after the installation.

While the engineer ought to ensure a properly-performant line, Openreach are willing to guarantee that performance by setting a higher range (and higher fault threshold) by virtue of having an engineer install. They embody the guarantee by agreeing to send out an engineer in future at higher thresholds.

The obvious scenario that Openreach wanted to avoid when self-install was introduced: They didn't want to make it cheaper for punters (by allowing them to not pay for an engineer), to only then have to offer an engineer callout free-of-charge in order to fix the problem that only exists because the punter didn't want to pay for an engineer. Less income, higher costs ... not a good business move.

What was needed, alongside the option for self-install, was a lesser guarantee that would avoid any extra demand on Openreach-funded engineer callouts (or "truck rolls" as the Americans call them).

The lower range is the method that Openreach have chosen to apply a lesser guarantee. I'm not so sure it was the best way - it leads to inconsistencies if you get an engineer install on day 1, but migrate to a self-install supplier; why should a lesser guarantee apply in these circumstances?

For myself, I will always choose an engineer installation, with an ISP that quotes their minimum speed using the clean range. That way, if faults happen in the future, I'll be able to get an engineer involved at the higher speed rather than the lower one.
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