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Author Topic: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?  (Read 13976 times)

burakkucat

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2016, 09:04:59 PM »

I was really surprised when I read of the "hot VP" excuse, as I regard that as something from the early days of xDSL circuits (e.g. G.992.1 (a.k.a. G.Dmt)) in the 20th Century and not something that should have "resurrected" (i.e. used) by Plusnet to account for their problems when providing a G.993.2 (VDSL2) based service.  :-X
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aneesh99

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2016, 09:09:41 PM »

The longer this has gone on the more I feel like  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So based on my stats so far, ILQ green, I can't understand why DLM hasn't done anything for the past four months...
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burakkucat

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2016, 09:17:32 PM »

The longer this has gone on the more I feel like  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Is that  :shrug2:  ?

Quote
So based on my stats so far, ILQ green, I can't understand why DLM hasn't done anything for the past four months...

Because the DLM process is unable to remove banding from a G.993.2 based circuit. Interaction by an Openreach technician is required.  :(
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ejs

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2016, 09:23:09 PM »

I thought I remember a thread where someone was watching the DLM gradually relax (increase the speed) of a banded FTTC line, after some internal wiring or fault was fixed. I didn't think the FTTC DLM was unable to remove banding.

I wouldn't even be completely sure if the DLM lights in a stats monitoring program are an accurate indicator, given we don't know that much about the retransmission counters and if any of them are collected and used by the DLM.
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aneesh99

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2016, 09:39:59 PM »

So what's the solution here? Is the only way to find out with OR having to reset?
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burakkucat

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2016, 10:04:35 PM »

I thought I remember a thread where someone was watching the DLM gradually relax (increase the speed) of a banded FTTC line, after some internal wiring or fault was fixed.

I can't recall that event . . . but I am prepared to accept your statement.  :)

So what's the solution here? Is the only way to find out with OR having to reset?

Either wait and see or accept that British Telecommunications plc (trading as Openreach) may invoice British Telecommunications plc (trading as BT Wholesale) who may, in turn, invoice British Telecommunications plc (trading as Plusnet) who then will charge you.  :-X
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aneesh99

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2016, 10:59:10 PM »

I'm not really sure where this leaves me? Back at the start where my it's being held back by banding and high retransmission?  :-\

Errors so far today

                                           Down      Up
CRC errors/hour                        0        6.80
FEC errors/hour                       490       25.4
HEC errors/hour                        0           0
Errored seconds (ES)/hour          0        4.64
Severely errored seconds/hour    0           0
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 11:09:30 PM by aneesh99 »
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kitz

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2016, 11:48:13 PM »

I was rushing earlier - had to go out and had RL things that must be done - but I was still mulling things over in my head whilst away from the PC.

1) The GEA test itself cannot possibly perform a speed test  - it would need to download some sort of file to measure throughput.

Therefore it must be some sort of projected throughput after allowing for overheads of something.  So I started to think things through wondering what the something could be -  The IP profile already makes an allowance for TCP/IP overheads so it wont be that.  I doubt it will be any other protocol overheads so I was thinking what other types of overhead.  RS overheads (INP) physically reduces the sync speed so its not that either.   
However what I couldn't check whilst out, was look at the DLM profile again and it also struck me that I didnt recall seeing any stats showing the framing params to see if the line had G.INP rather than INP.

First thing I did when I got back in was check the profile again.

Code: [Select]
0.128M-67M Downstream, Retransmission High - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Error Protection Off

So retransmission High, which I don't think Ive seen before.  I think, I can only ever recall seeing ReTx Low.
Then whilst I was away I see ejs has done some maths and spotted that the reduction from sync is 95.67% for both figures and he also is on to the Retransmission High.

Let me catch up reading what else has been said this afternoon,   but I definitely think ejs is on the right track.
I also need to try read G.998.4 to refresh my memory. 
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aneesh99

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2016, 12:05:07 AM »

I'm going to leave it to you guys then, this is way over my head  ???
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kitz

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2016, 12:20:23 AM »

Going through the posts here one at a time

Quote
I'm up on the site so my stats should be available under aneesh99.

MDWS doesnt show framing params for the Bearers.  They arent something that is graphed because they are static figures.
Presuming you have a VMG8324, you can however get them from adsl info --stats

Quote
I was told in no uncertain terms that the reason was a 'hot VP', clearly given my symptoms of masses of errors and a tanking sync speed doesn't really fit that picture...

No - a hot SVLAN does not and will not cause Err Secs to trigger the DLM.
You must have either had an excessive amount of errors over a few days (MTBE) OR an excessive amount of resyncs over the course of a few days (MBTR).
 
There is also something called ' ILQ Scarlet' which can be triggered by a really excessive amount of retrains within a short time frame.   Unfortunately unlike MTBR and MTBE I don't think Openreach discloses what causes ILQ scarlet.

One thing springs to mind here - WilliamG's 'line fault' that wasnt a fault (he did a pile of resyncs to test the DLM despite being advised not to).  He ended up getting banded and we assumed he had triggered ILQ scarlet.  We never saw the results of one of his GEA tests though (BTr dont give them out) so don't know what profile he was on nor what it would have said for the speed.
All we do know is that he got banded and it wasn't removed by an automated/remote DLM reset and after a few months of it not budging, it had to be done by an OR engineer.

Quote
So based on my stats so far, ILQ green, I can't understand why DLM hasn't done anything for the past four months

With G.INP I strongly suspect there is another parameter that Openreach measures rather than Err/Secs when deciding to relent.
MTBE and MTMR may well be the triggers for DLM to take action , but what is excruciatingly difficult to find any information about is how it reverses this procedure. 

If a line has retransmission then I suspect it may be the LEFTR stats.  I did try asking Ian Lawrence if  LEFTR was monitored if a line had G.INP applied, but he neither denied nor confirmed this and remained tight lipped.   There was a court case about 2yrs ago between BT & ASSIA.  Since then they don't disclose a lot about the DLM process.. and we have a gap in knowledge on how DLM reverses any previous action.

Whilst you may currently be ILQ green, it would be interesting to monitor not just Err Secs but also LEFTRS.   Unfortunately I dont think MDWS records these.   If Tony is reading - it may be an idea if these could be recorded in the same way as Err Secs for lines with G.INP,  as I think (ASS-u-me) they could be important when it comes to reversing a previous profile.
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kitz

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2016, 12:29:25 AM »

Going through the Plusnet forum posts

Aww Bless.   It looks like Anoush isn't at work and still trying to help you from home in his own time. 10 out of 10 for persistance & dedication :D

TBH its getting late and I still have things I need to do here, so I'm not going to duplicate posts on both forums.  :(

Quote from: Anoush
I have to admit, a small part of me is wondering what will happen if the line is reset by an engineer to remove the banding.

We've found it is the ONLY way to remove banding. 
See my post here explaining about the two different types of DLM reset. 

On the BTw DLM (ADSL) there is something that can occur which causes immediate banding.  We've known about this for a long time (years!).  In cases such as these it wasn't always apparent that the line had been banded and the only way it could be removed was by the ISP asking BTw to remove the cap.  Even though an ISP can reset the ADSL DLM, it didnt always remove the cap and (at least at one time) it had to be requested separately.   Theres a post on here years ago from one of the Plusnet reps (Chris iirc) whereby we couldnt figure out why a line wouldnt reset properly.   The PN rep came back and explained it was because the line had been capped.   Let me see if I can find the post, but it was such a long time ago.
Im thinking this may be the NGA equivalent. 
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aneesh99

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2016, 12:31:36 AM »

MDWS doesnt show framing params for the Bearers.  They arent something that is graphed because they are static figures.
Presuming you have a VMG8324, you can however get them from adsl info --stats

adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Last Retrain Reason:    0
Last initialization procedure status:   0
Max:    Upstream rate = 23132 Kbps, Downstream rate = 75809 Kbps
Bearer: 0, Upstream rate = 19999 Kbps, Downstream rate = 66997 Kbps
Bearer: 1, Upstream rate = 0 Kbps, Downstream rate = 0 Kbps
Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode(0x0)
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        7.9             7.3
Attn(dB):        17.1            0.0
Pwr(dBm):        13.0            7.1

                        VDSL2 framing
                        Bearer 0
MSGc:           -6              26
B:              138             237
M:              1               1
T:              0               42
R:              8               16
S:              0.0000          0.3781
L:              17895           5374
D:              8               1
I:              147             127
N:              147             254
Q:              8               0
V:              5               0
RxQueue:                132             0
TxQueue:                33              0
G.INP Framing:          18              0
G.INP lookback:         31              0
RRC bits:               0               24
                        Bearer 1
MSGc:           154             -6
B:              0               0
M:              2               0
T:              2               0
R:              16              0
S:              6.4000          0.0000
L:              40              0
D:              3               0
I:              32              0
N:              32              0
Q:              0               0
V:              0               0
RxQueue:                0               0
TxQueue:                0               0
G.INP Framing:          0               0
G.INP lookback:         0               0
RRC bits:               0               0

                        Counters
                        Bearer 0
OHF:            0               2742457
OHFErr:         0               44
RS:             1676554840              543931
RSCorr:         4368            189
RSUnCorr:       0               0
                        Bearer 1
OHF:            1721587         0
OHFErr:         0               0
RS:             17215253                0
RSCorr:         23              0
RSUnCorr:       0               0

                        Retransmit Counters
rtx_tx:         17962520                0
rtx_c:          297             0
rtx_uc:         0               0

                        G.INP Counters
LEFTRS:         0               0
minEFTR:        67002           0
errFreeBits:    28261313                0


                        Bearer 0
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    3562802112              0
Data Cells:     146354634               0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

                        Bearer 1
HEC:            0               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    0               0
Data Cells:     0               0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             0               31
SES:            0               0
UAS:            29              29
AS:             27661

                        Bearer 0
INP:            51.00           0.00
INPRein:        1.00            0.00
delay:          0               0
PER:            0.00            3.98
OR:             0.01            64.22
AgR:            67421.12        20063.54

                        Bearer 1
INP:            4.50            0.00
INPRein:        4.50            0.00
delay:          3               0
PER:            16.06           0.01
OR:             79.68           0.01
AgR:            79.68   0.01

Bitswap:        114/114         42/42

Total time = 7 hours 41 min 30 sec
FEC:            4368            189
CRC:            0               44
ES:             0               31
SES:            0               0
UAS:            29              29
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 15 minutes time = 11 min 30 sec
FEC:            64              2
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            25              0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 7 hours 41 min 30 sec
FEC:            4368            189
CRC:            0               44
ES:             0               31
SES:            0               0
UAS:            29              29
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
FEC:            0               0
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
Since Link time = 7 hours 41 min 1 sec
FEC:            4368            189
CRC:            0               44
ES:             0               31
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
LOM:            0               0
NTR: mipsCntAtNtr=0 ncoCntAtNtr=0

 
No - a hot SVLAN does not and will not cause Err Secs to trigger the DLM.

I can PM you or upload the entire ticket to read through if that'll be any help?

Whilst you may currently be ILQ green, it would be interesting to monitor not just Err Secs but also LEFTRS.   Unfortunately I dont think MDWS records these.   

I think the LEFTRS stat in in the adsl info --stats above. Both upstream and downstream counters are zero though....  ???

I've noticed the INPRein stat. What's the significance of it and does it indicate anything relevant?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 12:39:33 AM by aneesh99 »
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kitz

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2016, 12:43:02 AM »

Quote
The PN rep came back and explained it was because the line had been capped.  Let me see if I can find the post, but it was such a long time ago.

Damn I can't find it.   All I can recall is that the line was banded at 2Mbps and we couldnt figure out why.   It was a Plusnet customer and one of the PNreps sorted it by contacting BTw direct.  Ive tried going through the ISP rep posts but cant see it on there.  However it could be one of the reps that is no longer with Plusnet which is why I cant find it by looking at posts for tagged ISP reps :(
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aneesh99

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2016, 12:51:25 AM »

I've attached the fault ticket just in case there's anything here that helps.

Thanks again all, I appreciate the help so far. Please enjoy your holidays!  :)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 12:54:49 AM by aneesh99 »
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kitz

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Re: Am I stuck on a banded/high retransmission profile?
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2016, 01:00:11 AM »

Quote
                       G.INP Counters
LEFTRS:         0               0
minEFTR:        67002           0
errFreeBits:    28261313                0

From G.INP Parameters & Counters

Code: [Select]
LEFTR = Loss of Error Free Throughput - Count of seconds with a defect.    (Could be similar to Err/Secs for G.INP lines?).

minEFTR = Minimum Error Free Throughput
minEFTR is a performance monitor measured at showtime of the minimum of the EFTR observed in the seconds since the last reading of the EFTR_min, excluding the following seconds.
– seconds in which the values of EFTR are less than ETR/2;
– seconds in which EFTR is not defined;
– the single second preceding a second with seftr defect;
– the single second following a second with seftr defect.

[note: appears to bear some resemblance to sync speed]

Quote
Both upstream and downstream counters are zero though

Thats fine - It just means there havent been any and G.INP is working fine....  in the same way how a good line without G.INP may not show any Err/Secs.

Quote
I can PM you or upload the entire ticket to read through if that'll be any help?

You can do... but I will be honest and say that I'm not sure if I will have chance to read through properly for the next few days :/
I had hoped to get to bed at a reasonable hour tonight, but I still have IRL things I need to do  (Not given Ziggy his meds yet and it takes me about 1/2 hr to prep the syringe and wrestle with him) :D :D

Not had time to revisit the G.998.4 documentation either, however ejs seems to be on the ball there, so for now I will have to leave that side of things in his capable hands.

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ETA   
I see you've attached them whilst I was typing.   I will try look tomorrow.  My alarm has been going off since 11pm to give Zigs his meds.  He gets poorly if he doesnt get them.   

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PPS

May be a good idea if you get chance to point out to Anoush my post about the 2 types of DLM reset and its only the OR engineer one that does a full reset.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2016, 01:07:44 AM by kitz »
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Please do not PM me with queries for broadband help as I may not be able to respond.
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How to get your router line stats :: ADSL Exchange Checker
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