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Author Topic: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.  (Read 11818 times)

sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2016, 07:07:54 PM »

Am I the only person who thought all the big ISPs were already doing all the IP address logging? Were they doing it, but weren't actually required to do it?

I'd be very surprised if they hadn't been logging IP-based activity, otherwise they'd have no way of investigating what happened when faults arise.   

Every comms stack to which I personally contributed offered a pretty detailed logging mechanism that could be inspected within memory dumps if the machine crashed, or manually extracted by the user for submission with any fault reports.   It probably wouldn't extend back as far as a year by default, but the better implementations allowed the user to configure the log size.
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j0hn

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2016, 07:16:16 PM »

ISP's have kept records of who is using what I.P at specific times, including dynamic I.P's, for some time. Now they are being forced to keep records of what I.P's your I.P connects to, and various other pieces of metadata.
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ejs

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2016, 07:57:40 PM »

Plusnet's Privacy Policy already contains "We also collect information on the websites you visit."
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niemand

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2016, 10:35:26 PM »

Am I the only person who thought all the big ISPs were already doing all the IP address logging? Were they doing it, but weren't actually required to do it?

To be honest they would've been extremely cautious about such things due to RIPA.

Plusnet of course are an outlier in that they freely admit to hardcore DPI.
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kitz

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2016, 12:17:17 AM »

Hmmmm.  There's different sorts of IP logging.   Every ISP will log which user get a particular IP address and when.
Ive been very quietly watching a few conversations.  My impression is that as a matter of course they do not currently log which sites you visit but a few may log the protocols you use.  That's easy for them if they use ellacoyas/proceras analyse by protocol type, so they can monitor how much of that type of traffic you use.
Logging every single IP address that you connect to certainly does not appear to be the norm.. far from it. Even some pretty large ISPs are in for a heck of a lot of work (and additional storage space) to comply with the new legislation.

TBH I haven't read the links in the first post, but I've been following from other sources.  What is of concern to me is who has access to this data and also the possibility of hacking that data.  The list that Ive seen of whom can actually (legally) access the data is worrying.  Its a very long list including some gambling anonymous something. 

I myself have been in the past, been in a position of trust whereby I could have directly accessed the financial records of literally anyone in the UK and full CBS data, right down to how much you spent with a catalogue.   The temptation could always be there for someone who perhaps shouldn't search on say a neighbour, or even do bulk checks if the financial reward was enough.  There's one heck of a lot of people on the new list who could have access to that data.   Do you really want it known if say you'd been searching about abortions, or suicide or addictions and could this be ever used in an adverse way. You may just search for something out of pure curiosity to find out how something works and not necessarily to intend to do harm, yet that could be used in unrelated evidence.   The more people that have access to this data then the more likely it is to leak.   :'(

Yep Im not so naive as to know that google profiles users, nor that there are currently 'special forces' who can tap into the data.  I know for a fact that they do, and have had first hand experience of a knock at the door when trying to track down someone whom they suspect could be a threat to 'national security'.    But the latest changes seem to take it to a much higher level.

TBH its all a waste of time because anyone who was really serious would find ways around it.  Next step making VPN illegal :rolls eyes:
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2016, 12:44:56 AM »

I may be wrong, but I've seen nothing to suggest the new powers give access to anything you have searched for. 

They merely yield the IP address to which you connected, and would be unable to distinguish whether you typed it into the address bar, or searched and clicked a link.

Moreover, all they would show is the IP address, not the full address.   For example, my own record for this event would merely show that I had connected to Kitz.co.uk.  It wouldn't show how I'd got there, and it wouldn't show what page I was looking at. Nor would it show any of the contents of this post or indeed whether I had actually posted anything, or even was just browsing the forums or some other part of the site, rather than the forums.

Or am I mistaken?  ???
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2016, 01:03:28 AM »

PS, depending on the web hosts we've used over the years, in addition to the log of source IP addresses, some have shown the search terms when the link came from a search engine.

My favourite was an individual, circa early 2000s, who hit us as a results of a search for 'world domination'.    :o

It's a long (and innocent) story why that search found our site and he must have been a long way down the lists of hits, but it did amuse me.    :D
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Chrysalis

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2016, 01:20:55 AM »

They doing some form of logging so they can comply with copyright infringement court orders, but not on the scale that this bill seeks to introduce.

I agree with ignition that content censorship is a given now, its the next logical step.  An idea what the current gov thinks is unacceptable can be seen in the current proposals, blocking porn is the obvious one right now, but it wont be limited to that.  Note as well how they tried to ban encryption, that alone is a big alarm sound as to what their end game is.
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kitz

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2016, 11:45:27 AM »

Sorry perhaps badly worded when I said searching.  I didn't explicitly mean results of searches, but rather the pages you visit after a search. From those pages its very easy to build up very detailed profiles on people.

My objection is the huge amount of people who have access to this information. If it was just say security services then I could live with it, but there are far too many organisations whom I feel have no need to access this data.

Why the likes of Gambling Commission,  Ambulance services, Health & safety, food standards, NHS, DWP and Im not even sure I can find a reason why HM revenue need to know this data.    The more people that have access, the more likely to be a data leak.   Its the security of this data that worries me.
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2016, 11:55:43 AM »

My objection is the huge amount of people who have access to this information. If it was just say security services then I could live with it, but there are far too many organisations whom I feel have no need to access this data.

Why the likes of Gambling Commission,  Ambulance services, Health & safety, food standards, NHS, DWP and Im not even sure I can find a reason why HM revenue need to know this data.    The more people that have access, the more likely to be a data leak.   Its the security of this data that worries me.

I certainly agree on that, it is hard to understand why they thought it necessary. ???
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Bowdon

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2016, 03:35:59 PM »

There seems to be a very puritanical feeling amongst a growing number of people in our society. That they do things behind closed doors or advocate when they are in their close social circle. But when speaking in public they adopt the politically correct conventional position.

I'm not surprised at the government wanted to do something like that. About 10 or more years ago I remember the first version of this act. this RIPA is already in force. This debate bill awaiting to be stamped is extending its power. I remember the first time I heard of it. They wanted the ability to break in to your home without a warrant. Search anything you had, and also make it a criminal offence for you to speak about it. They also wanted the ability to commandeer any of your property in certain situations, and again you were forced to not speak out, a sort of D Notice would be put on you. I think the first versions were very watered down. Apparently additions have been made to this bill in December 2003, April 2005, July 2006, Febrary 2010 and now the recent updated bill was introducted in November 2015. It seems they realised they couldnt get the full original bill past the first time so have done it in steps.

Along with this bill we have the updating of Digital economy bill that says its blocking adult websites and 'think of the children'. This will be the first physical attempts by the government to block websites.

I think this past US election showed how the media wasn't just one sided. But attempted to demonize the other side. It does feel like 1984. Total censorship while propaganda reigns supreme. Except this time its not a Hitler or Stalin.. its some weak mouthed politician claiming he's for freedom.. as long as we agree with him.
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niemand

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2016, 12:42:47 AM »

I'll have a think about what I can and can't discuss, but I can certainly say that Kitz underestimates the abilities of the big ISPs with extensive DPI kit.

I have used such equipment and could happily drill down to the level of who visited what, when.
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Ronski

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2016, 06:30:47 AM »

Are we talking per connection or can it even be taken as far as which device on that connection used?
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niemand

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2016, 01:21:42 PM »

I've received some advice suggesting it would be a bad idea for me to discuss too much more, however I can answer your specific question with that DPI can certainly separate individual devices behind NAT. Whether this is routinely done I won't comment on but the capability is there.
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NewtronStar

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Re: Investigatory Powers Bill is coming in to law.. Big Brother is here.
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2016, 08:34:12 PM »

Don't start being suspicious the data collected for a user will need a warrant from the courts before the authority's can access your browsing history and there is not much change since the last Bill.   
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