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Author Topic: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync  (Read 36613 times)

skyeci

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2016, 03:51:57 PM »

Only  because the report came back that either this was card/harness and or cables between the cab and pcp. There is some distance between the 2 which is odd as most are close by. One of the engineers suggested the cables were reversed/mixed. Out of the 10 ports tested last week not one of them would provide 80mb  at the cab which so I was told needed to be resolved..

I do feel now though this is a lost cause in getting it resolved only due to the length of time its been going on. Who knows maybe the  cables between the cabs are damaged. They must go under the road surface and 2 pavements perhaps...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 03:57:39 PM by skyeci »
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DMZ

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2016, 05:13:39 PM »

I powered down my router for half an hour at 4AM this morning hoping it would help maybe...It didn't. I lost 2Mb on my upload and 1Mb on my download. 18/69 from 20/70 sync.

My SNR on my upstream and the downstream are spiking between 6-7 (Both) - Up until recently were stable and barely spiked. Max attainable is just over 21, so in theory I could get my full 20Mbps sync again.

Guess it could be crosstalk. I would guess the SNR spiking/jumping ECI oddities some are talking about are what I'm seeing.

I have no knowledge at all on this stuff. Just assumptions is all.   ::)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 05:30:44 PM by DMZ »
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PhilipD

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2016, 07:16:52 PM »

Hi

Cross talk will reduce SNR but usually it's a consistent reduction, not an up/down.

To Kitz, it wouldn't surprise me that some fault is causing someone's connected modem to sync/drop/sync/drop etc and they are a disturber with your line.  Perhaps the downtime was due to some fault that caused damaged to one or more modems, and of course the ISP, if they've complained because they can't get online at all as the modem can't sync correctly, will of course told that person to leave everything connected.

Hopefully it will resolve itself soon.  Oh for a future on fibre to the home where we should be rid of these issues.  VDSL/ADSL is such a flaky technology.

Regards

Phil

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JoshShep

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2016, 07:44:06 PM »

@Kitz

Sorry for the late reply, just got off work. I am not in the position to monitor my line at the moment. The laptop I was using has packed in, I have ordered a long Cat5e cable, so will get things up and running soon.

What I can tell you is, being at this property almost a year now, it's normally perfect and my line seems stable most of the time, when I have monitored the connection, I have had very little errors and always been in the green.

I get spikes as you do and this causes DLM to interleave, it normally recovers after 10 days, I believe in the last 10 month DLM has taken action 3-4 times and that's it. But it seems to be totally random.

I know this doesn't help much as without any stats to look at and monitor it's hard to diagnose. But I believe I'm in a similar boat to you, and hope your line recovers soon.

burakkucat

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2016, 07:48:17 PM »

I have been watching and following the events regarding Kitz' erratic line behaviour.

The very first case of SNRM oscillations was brought to my attention a couple of years ago. (If I am remembered correctly.) At that time, the only suggestion I had was to power-down the modem and disconnect it from the circuit, leaving it in that state overnight. Next morning, when the modem was reconnected and powered-up, the oscillations were gone.

I am, of course, referring to N*Star's circuit and as that circuit is connected via a Huawei MA5603T, not an ECI M41, the "solution" may not be relevant to Kitz' ongoing problem.
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PhilipD

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2016, 10:07:35 PM »

Hi Kitz

How odd, I was doing a quick Google on flapping VDSL SNR and came across a post in this very forum and to my amazement it was my own post with a very similar problem, and I had completely forgotten about it! 

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=13901.0

Regards

Phil



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NewtronStar

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2016, 10:38:40 PM »

Hi
Cross talk will reduce SNR but usually it's a consistent reduction, not an up/down.

True but when the Crosstalker turns off their modem the effected users will see a sharp rise in SNR by 3-4 dB if that is your major one and a drop of SNR once the crosstalker turns on their modem
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kitz

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2016, 09:47:16 AM »

Quote
Guess it could be crosstalk. I would guess the SNR spiking/jumping ECI oddities some are talking about are what I'm seeing.

Crosstalk doesn't cause SNRm spiking.  FEXT is a constant source of noise that will remain static as long as the disturbers line is synchronised.
Whilst it does affect SNRm - it reduces the Signal to Noise ratio - you only really see the affects when the other party connects/disconnects.
When they connect, the effects of FEXT are that it reduces your signal strength.  Think of it like someone turning the volume down on your TV.

Sharp spiking is most usually some sort of EMI/RFI or occasionally a high open type line fault. 

Quote
The very first case of SNRM oscillations was brought to my attention a couple of years ago.

SNRm oscillations are sometimes a 'feature' when a line has suddenly lost sync, most times it will occur after a power cut/power surge.
Its not unique to VDSL and can also occur on ADSL.   Its been something I've been aware of for many years dating right back to the very early days of routerstats when I had a BT Voyager2100 so that has got to be well over 10yrs ago.   
It would always occur after a powercut my end and it could randomly occur if something caused a remote sync.  99 times out of 100 a router reboot would fix the issue.

With the advent of VDSL I saw it also happening on some lines so even before I myself had fttc, I started suggesting to do a full power down of the modem and a new fresh resync and again this usually fixed the problem.   I've many times over the years suggested a reboot to see if it fixes it.

I think because now we have MDWS we are more aware of it, back in 2005 there were very few people who ran routerstats 24/7 to see this happen.  We also seemed to have far less remote syncs with ADSL than VDSL. BT would install a MSAN and it would remain untouched for many years unless there was a line card problem, but the MSAN itself would keep going.

-------------

My current issue though is different.  Although it very first started after an exchange type outage, it does not always respond to a modem power down.  Nor does it always take a resync to trigger it.   There was no valid reason why the error rate should have shot sky high at exactly 3pm yesterday.   During those periods, using broadband is difficult.  Such high rates of errors mean that even just browsing is difficult.   

I am now interleaved and have INP but thats just really masking things.  I can see that the SNRm spiking is still there and I can see I am getting high peaks of FECs - far more than would be considered normal - see below for a bad one at 10.45 yesterday.

My QLN shows differences too.  Theres been a change of floor level and its more spikey. The U2 band has changed shape. 
The first graph shows signs of crosstalk in D2, the 2nd graph its masked by the spikeyness. D3 appears worst affected, although not confined soley to it.

Hlog is fine - possibly something going on at around tones 3300-3800 in D3 but its not anything that would cause undue concern. 
HLog Floor level remains unchanged which is why I dont believe this is a physical line issue and instead its noise being introduced onto the line.

Since it started Ive gone from a stable 84Mbps attainable to now 70Mbps interleaved without any of the normal signs that would indicate crosstalk. 
Also I think its highly unlikely that an engineer is going to be connecting a new user at 04.45 in the morning and causing me 15 mins downtime. 

As I type this, according to DSLstats, my upstream SNRm is pulsating between 12.5dB and 8.2 dB.

btw, spoke to my neighbour last night, she says her problems started the same week as mine.  She doesnt monitor but had noticed a reduction in speed, which continued to drop until she had no sync at all.   Being she's with Sky they first sent out one of their own engineers to test her internal equipment, then decided to send Openreach.
She doesnt know what they did to fix it other than it was an external fault not in or on her premises.


Quote
VDSL/ADSL is such a flaky technology.

You aint wrong there. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 09:49:47 AM by kitz »
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burakkucat

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2016, 03:54:20 PM »

I really don't know what to make of it.  :-\

Thinking in terms of electronics, it is rather like a negative feedback automatic gain control circuit that has managed to get into an oscillatory state.  :hmm:

Looking at the current 24 hours plot of the SNRM, we can see two distinct phases of the effect. That before 0730 hours and that after 0730 hours.  :o
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skyeci

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2016, 04:01:58 PM »

Openreach have cleared at the moment my spikey snrm on up and down  which was much like kitz's - they ran a series of remote resyncs. The last one out of 7 seemed to clear it with it holding for now...sync rate still lower than it was though..

DMZ

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2016, 04:27:27 PM »

My upstream has yet again dropped to 4 SNR whilst the downstream remains fine. My upstream is connected at 20 but due to the low SNR, next resync will lower it.

A day ago my router did resync and I've been stuck on interleave since. Lost download speed but regained upload again...It's just doing a yo-yo at this point.

According to the HG633 the interleaved depth is 1877 but my upstream is fine at 1.


I don't get it. It was all smooth until recently. I don't understand it at all.  ???
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les-70

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2016, 04:56:31 PM »

  I had a similar snrm a couple of years ago but it only occurred at dusk and stopped at dawn.  It seemed to coincide with an Xmas shop display and its flashing lights.  It lasted for about 2-3 months.  I guess lots of things could cause such issues.
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DMZ

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2016, 10:22:40 PM »

Sorry if I appear to be swamping kitz's thread with my inept understanding of this whole thing. At least I'll learn something out of this. 

This is only my second time being interleaved this year so I've been very lucky to have such a good line overall.

I was thinking perhaps Christmas lights would be a factor for me. But no one around my street nor shops has the typical flashing lights on display currently.

Taking a longer look at my stats as I'm typing this I noticed:

That my upstream SNR is staying static at 4.2 with a max attianble of 18 (Again) currently synced at 20.

My downstream SNR staying static somewhat at 6.5-6.8 with a max attainable of 91, currently synced at 64.

It's like my TalkTalk router isn't updating the fluctuating margins. Nor maximum data rates (Downstream never changes, Upstream varies maybe 0.20 Up/Down)

The other night my SNR margins for both were updating normally and doing those spikes/jumps. Maximum data rates were changing with them as expected

Is this an ECI issue maybe?

All I can take from this is that this isn't typical line behaviour for me...Probably not for you guys either.

Apologies for my lack of knowledge/ramblings, it flies over my head all of this.  :-X


Stats from my HG633:

DSL synchronization status:
Up

Connection status:
Showtime

Upstream line rate (kbit/s):
20000

Downstream line rate (kbit/s):
64686

Maximum upstream rate (kbit/s):
18792

Maximum downstream rate (kbit/s):
91512

Upstream noise safety coefficient (dB):
4.2

Downstream noise safety coefficient (dB):
6.6

Upstream interleave depth:
1

Downstream interleave depth:
1877

Line standard:
VDSL2

Upstream line attenuation (dB):
0.1

Downstream line attenuation (dB):
6.7

Upstream output power (dBm):
2.5

Downstream output power (dBm):
13.4

Channel type:
Interleaved

DSL up-time:
1 day 12 hours 43 minutes 10 seconds

« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 12:33:53 AM by DMZ »
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kitz

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2016, 04:32:56 PM »

Nope its not typical behaviour at all,  I'm not certain about it being the ECI's but it does seem like we've had a few similar of late.
Mine isnt related to xmas because of when it started.

Just to eliminate the VMG8324, I managed to get a VMG1312-B10D on ebay for £10.50 (different chipset). 
Ive set it up this afty and unfortunately the problem is still there.  Downstream stats are similar, upstream is less, and still seeing the spiking. :/
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DMZ

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Re: Erratic line behaviour after remote resync
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2016, 05:14:54 PM »

Oh blimey kitz, bad luck there.  :no:

I was thinking of buying a new router/modem to replace my supplied HG633 but it looks like it won't make a difference.

The only connections I can make is some of us on ECI DSLAM's are seeing weird issues like sync speeds, snr, max attainable etc out of wack.

Hopefully there will be some resolve soon, it's annoying as we all know our lines are capable of much better. The fact these oddities are alien somewhat and popped out nowhere is a chin scratcher.

Interleaving is an add insult to injury for me as I'm a gamer.  :'(

With you guys that are seeing these issues where are you located? I'm up in the North East.

I doubt locality will help us resolve the problem but may see if it's widespread or just dotted around the UK.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 05:17:21 PM by DMZ »
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