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[Chrysalis]

kitz i sent pm

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[kitz]

@Chrys - got it thanks - replied.

@BS - Im still not 100% convinced it is a HR fault between the BT66 and JB.    Ive never seen a HR fault cause such regular oscillations before.  If anything it looks more like REIN symptoms than a high open.   Its like something on the line is pulsing and quite often there is a very regular pattern to it.  HR usually cause more erratic spiking. 

Then again Im not an engineer so have to bow to you guys better knowledge when it comes to cables and wires.  I can only go off what stats are showing me.  Ive been using dslstats and similar for way over 10 yrs and if someone showed me some of my graphs without any background knowledge then all my instincts would be screaming REIN or PEIN.

[kitz]

I'm now about to enter theorise mode so don't take as gospel proof of anything. 

These are facts.

• Openreach know and have admitted that the ECI cabs when updated with g.inp have been displaying far more errors on some lines.   Obviously they will know this because RAMBO keeps count of error rates. 
• My error rates and the oscillations first started after a 15 min outage at the cab at about 4.30am one morning. (exact time date/details earlier in thread).    A 15min cab outage at that time indicates some sort of possible software update.
• A remote sync can very often clear the line for a short while.  A resync at this end wont always clear it unless its left out of service for a certain amount of time.

Whilst RAMBO will monitor error rates, it does not see the constant SNRM oscillations because it does not have the ability to graph individual lines in such detail.
Thus Openreach are likely unaware of rock steady flat lines suddenly becoming something that more resembles a seismometer recording a continual earth tremor.
They may be able to detect the low and high points on SNRM (like you can perhaps see on a JDSU) but because the oscillations swing between say 3dB then it may be dismissed as usual atmospheric changes.
The thought crosses my mind is I wonder what SNRM graphs would show for those lines which have been throwing out more errors.  I know my line certainly is and its why the DLM takes such interest in it of late.

Below I'll show
[1] Typical graph showing signs on a HR fault.
[2] Typical graph showing line entering a period of REIN
[3] Typical graph showing crosstalk
[4] My line over a period of time.

Thought BS may be interested in these as its not normally something he would see. This is the good side of routerstats monitoring where it helps us to identify types of faults.... and not the OCD type behaviour that may occur with certain people whereby they worry if things change by 0.1 dB

[burakkucat]

In my opinion, your circuit is doubly troubled.

The first, which has been fairly clear to me for some time, is a physical defect in the metallic pathway. The indicators are the fuzziness shown in the QLN plot and the high frequency droop (which comes and goes) shown in the Hlog plot. In the plot, shown below, the droop is currently not so pronounced.

The second, which was giving some trouble in terms of how to express it, is as you have just theorised . . . the curse of the ECI Hi-FOCuS Mini-Shelf M41 MSAN.

[Black Sheep]

@Chrys - got it thanks - replied.

@BS - Im still not 100% convinced it is a HR fault between the BT66 and JB.    Ive never seen a HR fault cause such regular oscillations before.  If anything it looks more like REIN symptoms than a high open.   Its like something on the line is pulsing and quite often there is a very regular pattern to it.  HR usually cause more erratic spiking. 

Then again Im not an engineer so have to bow to you guys better knowledge when it comes to cables and wires.  I can only go off what stats are showing me.  Ive been using dslstats and similar for way over 10 yrs and if someone showed me some of my graphs without any background knowledge then all my instincts would be screaming REIN or PEIN.

Hey Kitz ..... you know your circuits performance better than anyone, so as an engineer I always listen to what the EU has to say. Of course, you also have the graphs to back up your suspicions.

I was simply trying to form an opinion based around what you were told by the engineer, that is was the UG feed causing problems.
If the new pair he has connected you to is also ready for the knackers yard, then it won't be able to reject what we perceive to be REIN in your graphs, but may just be slightly higher-than-normal noise levels that a perfectly balanced pair would reject ??

Our BRAT (Repair tool) systems nearly always report a HR as REIN. TBH, you need another engineering visit to determine whether the first engineer did as he should. 

[kitz]

TBH, you need another engineering visit to determine whether the first engineer did as he should.

...  and therein lies the problem.   
The engineer has reported that the new line is working satisfactory and PN are refusing to send out another engineer.
When I first reported the fault my line had dropped below 69Mbps which was the BTw range at the time. 
Now PN are saying my MGAL is 62.57 and unless the speed drops below that then they wont consider a fault.

Hey Kitz ..... you know your circuits performance better than anyone, so as an engineer I always listen to what the EU has to say.

Just thought you may be interested in seeing some graphs to show what gives us an indication of whats going on.
The line had been playing up for a while but until it dropped below 68Mbps there wasnt anything I could do.    Now Im going to have to wait until it drops below 62Mbps 

Basically stuffed.   The line is underperforming what it should do for the length, but obviously not performing badly enough.   His promise of monitor for 30 days and if no better get back to us was meaningless because now I cant.
This new MGAL thing has screwed a lot of EU's over.  It doesn't appear to take any account of previous individual performance, just a percentile of the worst performing lines of similar length.   Those worst performing lines could be screwed by all manner of things including ali, self install messups, star wiring/bridge taps.  My line physically isnt in any better state than when I reported the fault.  In fact this one syncs slightly lower.
Wish I'd never bothered getting him out - its been a total waste of my time... in fact on the odd occasion I can even hear noise on this line - last Saturday it was pretty bad, but now its ok.   Not sure if that could be weather related at its been ok whilst its been dry.   

Like b*cat says.... and as I said above I suspect there's 2 things going on here.   The physical line isn't 100% right plus there's either something akin to REIN/PEIN or ECI nastiness. 

[NEXUS2345]

Considering that Plusnet are refusing to get involved, is it worth firing an email to the OR CEOs office? If this is a more widespread issue among ECI cabinets, it is something that they may be able to fix nationwide.

[Black Sheep]

Any engineer that says to "Monitor for 30 days" and then re-report it if need be, is not to be trusted, in my opinion.

It's ironic that a) The engineer 'Repeat Report' analysis is based around 30 days for each engineer. If you have a RR within 30 days, it is frowned upon .......... and b) We have similar engineers on my patch who say the same thing to our EU's. The same similar untrustworthy engineers. 

Alas, I have no idea how ISP's operate, what their own trigger-points are to raise a fault, whether there's wriggle-room within those parameters etc etc ....................... I just know when someone is being blagged, and you are being blagged when you are being told to wait 30 days !!! Not acceptable. 

[NewtronStar]

See it so easy to say get OR to visit your premises for a second time but you need your ISP to grant that wish the last OR engineer Kitz had let it slip the UG feed has degraded to the point it will fail sooner rather than later.

So maybe an email to CEO is your only option and if your anything like me this will only be as a last resort.

[kitz]

It is one of the things I have considered tbh.   
 
Without going into too much personal detail, it's a bit time consuming and awkward for me right now. 
Same reason as why Im not posting so much,  why I waited so long to report it, and same reason why I didn't kick up too much of a stink when PN called me.
I reported it due to the fact that the errors made streaming from i-player nigh on impossible (buffering).  TBB speedtests were 1.5 to 1.9 Mbps during the few hours of the high error bursts.    I had hoped that behaviour would clear from this line but it hasnt...  as evidenced by DLM taking action just in 2 days after the supposed fix.

When I have a clear day I may do so.  Under normal circumstances it would have already been done by now

[NewtronStar]

SNRM has been steady since an upward spike yesterday at 13:34 crosstalker reboot so unless it fixed itself which I doubt or Walters wheelbarrow found it way to your location to early to judge which one it is.

[kitz]

Yep I noticed it too yesterday.   Looks like a typical crosstalker reboot and then problem disappeared.  The SNRm since has flatlined at 6.4dB
I do mean flatlined as its not even moved by 0.01dB since and is solid.   It proves that the line can behave.

The last time it was like this was Feb half term.   By co-incidence its now Easter holidays.

http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,19200.msg343444.html#msg343444

I don't think its my direct neighbour as she is home and not away this time.  In fact with it being school hols she is more likely to be at home during the day. 
I actually had a look around some of my further neighbours but cant see any signs that any of them are away and most had signs of activity yesterday so this is puzzling me.   There is a school quite near the cab but Im clutching at straws now. 

[burakkucat]

. . . so unless it fixed itself which I doubt or Walters wheelbarrow found it way to your location to early to judge which one it is.

Perhaps someone gave the (ECI equipped) cabinet a good kicking? 

[Chrysalis]

kitz you planning to try that new ex zen router a test? i am curious if its worse than the 63168

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[kitz]

There's a couple of other points.   

- My SNRm is at 6.4dB and stable, yet my max attainable hasn't increased. Power is still the same so its not that either.

- Its still generating ErrSecs.   Obviously within limits and Im NOT concerned.  The reason I mention it is because it's a damn good job Im with an ISP who uses Speed profile.

After the noise burst last week, it only took DLM one full day to remove interleaving. Even today with stable and surplus SNRm I would be on amber if with an ISP who used Standard... and that interleave would never be removed. 
Those extremely high error rates in to 10's of thousands do happen from time to time and if history is anything to go by, the next one will be within days of whatever it is causing it being switched back on or re-appearing.