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Author Topic: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe  (Read 2794 times)

CarlT

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1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« on: September 27, 2016, 07:00:49 PM »

Not here, of course, but Comhem in Sweden have released 1Gb/100Mb cable.

More interestingly it doesn't use the newest DOCSIS 3.1 standard, it uses the 3.0 standard that Virgin Media have on their network, using the same class of CPE and 'exchange' equipment Virgin Media are, just with more channels in each direction.



Just something to think about in between discussing ways Openreach can wring a few extra megabits out of our existing lines without pushing fibre deeper into the network.
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Bowdon

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2016, 11:17:12 PM »

The one thing I've noticed having typed to people around the world alot (I was a big IRC fan) is that when it comes to broadband technologies most other countries seem to build their networks in a more structured way.

In the US it seems houses were built with road networks in mind, everything is very square. They don't seem to have the same building regulations as we do when it comes to highway maintenance.

When it comes to scandinavia I've had 2 friends from that part of the world. One from Sweden the other from Finland. The Swedish one lived in the inner city in Stockholm. All flats and apartments have full 'ultra' speed. Thats their 'normal'. The Finnish person I knew lived out in the wilderness near a town called Kuopio. I think she had the speeds that we get on FTTC. I'm not sure if it was fibre or cable. It was good that she got good speeds to a town that is quite a ways north east in Finland.

So far we're the only country I've seen that can build a zig zag road and say thats the most direct route lol.
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CarlT

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 02:04:58 PM »

Genuinely nothing special about this. Virgin Media if they had a business case could do this with their existing network.

Kinda puts the BT plan to get G.fast to 500Mb in the 2020s in perspective. Would be good to see some more ambitious plans, if FTTP really is so unviable, to push fibre deeper and to use pair bonding.
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Weaver

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2016, 02:21:38 PM »

Perhaps pair bonding should be used as a form of long range VDSL too. MR-257 talks about the equivalent-rate increased range that you can get by using pair bonding with VDSLx and G.Vector. See
    https://www.broadband-forum.org/marketing/download/mktgdocs/MR-257.pdf

I wonder how much that's true for lower data rates on VDSLx?

Is the only really significant cost that of two DSLAM ports? (As presumably the labour is done once whether it's one pair or two that you're running.)
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andyfitter

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2016, 02:51:44 PM »

Does pair bonding really use two ports? I assumed it was literally two twisted pairs running in parallel into a single port, effectively giving you twice the thickness of wire between you and the PCP?
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Weaver

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 02:59:38 PM »

That document (linked to earlier) says that pair bonding in their sense of the word doubles throughout, so it must mean that it is two pipes not just thicker copper.
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andyfitter

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 03:02:51 PM »

Interesting! My understanding would be that plain 'bonding' would be two connections in parallel using two ports, but 'pair bonding' would physically bonds two pairs into one. This would give you a higher sync rate, but not specifically double as you mention (which implies two ports in use).

Looks like some confusion over terminology somewhere.
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Chrysalis

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 03:14:54 PM »

Its been done in sweden probably for marketing reasons as that country has gigabit FTTP services.

There is no real use case for gbit consumer connections.

Whilst VM could probably get access speeds to gigabit without too much trouble, the infrastructure needed to provide those speeds at peak is what they would struggle with, evident by the fact for over a decade now they have been unable to supply speeds at peak in busy areas.
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CarlT

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 08:16:41 PM »

No real business case, although I'd point out that the Vivid 200 Gamer tier seems to be pretty good as far as delivering speeds at peak periods goes.

I appreciate you think that they should be selling something like 1/10th of the capacity to a single customer as I recall and massively overprovisioning.

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Chrysalis

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 08:38:36 PM »

You cant use large scale averages as it wont work.

Things like torrent users tend to be clustered together in low income areas.

So e.g. an estate full of pensioners who just check their email once a day will skew these figures.

I dont know what the exact capacity vs bandwidth sold is the winning formula, but I have come to learn that clearly a one size fits all policy cannot be used as every area is different and that high utilisation areas in VM, time and time again for several years at a time remain problematic, VM are clearly doing something wrong in that respect.  Its a company where the marketing needs outweigh fixing existing problems.  This probably goes some way to explain why VM are much more aggressive than BT in seeking to push higher speeds out to users.

Some will like this approach such as yourself, others like myself do not.

I cannot comment on if the swedish cable telco has the same issues as VM but interestingly another cable telco comcast in america is known for having horrific congestion on their peering, which might be a measure they use to manage load on their docsis equipment.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 08:44:12 PM by Chrysalis »
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CarlT

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2016, 09:11:07 PM »

As it says in the picture those averages are calculated per serving / service group, not over a wider cohort. This is valid.

VM's metrics are calculated per service group and are based on QoE metrics.

Comcast don't allow their peering/transit to contend to try and reduce load on their access network, they do it to try and deter their customers from using OTT video and instead paying them for video service.

Torrent users can indeed be clustered together in low income areas. These areas also tend to be lower revenue per premises passed. So the business case for spending money upgrading them so that people can torrent at full speed is minimal.

VM are I imagine more aggressive in seeking to push higher speeds out partly because they can do it just through adding channels. I'm sure if BT could viably do it by enabling profile 30a or 35b VDSL they would.

You'd hope given Arris have tens of millions of premises running on their equipment they'd have gotten the hang of how capacity planning can work :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2016, 01:22:29 AM »

As a end user I dont care if there is a business case, I just care how good the service is.

In my own business I have customers that make money and customers that lose money its a fact of life, I am sure every isp has customers that lose money, if VM are not prepared to lose money to make sure every area performs properly then they shouldnt be selling what they sell in those areas.  Like I said we disagree on this and we both have the right to our own opinion.

Regarding BT if I remember correctly they delayed adsl2+ services to wait for better infrastructure to be put in place first (21CN backbone), they did not have to do that.

Thinking about ti some more there is an argument that VM have an unfair advantage, a DSL isp has to provide an estimate to a customer that is close to what they likely to get, whilst VM can just say 200mbit even if the area is congested to hell and back.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 01:26:56 AM by Chrysalis »
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CarlT

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2016, 03:02:39 PM »

Well next year there should be different products in different areas depending on a couple of different factors, so you might get your wish on that one.

In at least some cases it's not about money, making sure that areas perform 'properly', there are a few other caveats that can't be worked around. I'm sure VM do lose money in some areas, and I think you place far too much importance on what they sell rather than the average load. People whose speeds are really low aren't suffering due to the burst available to others so much but solid load across the node. What someone sees on a multi-threaded speed test is roughly what everyone else is getting, give or take, so whether the cap on the line is 300Mb or 50Mb if the speed test is coming in at 30Mb it's not an issue.

VM were somewhat stuffed through caveats with vendors, local network restrictions partial rebuilds were necessary, which takes a lot of planning due to it causing total outages during the maintenance periods and can't be done overnight, restrictions on power, space, cooling and the like.

BT didn't delay ADSL 2+ out of the goodness of their hearts, they used MSANs that backhaul via IP, not ATM, and even if they had used ATM somehow it would've cost more to supply anything like the needed capacity than to replace it with IP, this ignoring that ADSL 2+ release was a 'bonus' when trying to migrate the PSTN to IP.

If people are unhappy with VM nearly all of them have other options, and VM do seem to be much improved now and continuing to make progress through upgrades and modem swaps.

VIVID 200 Gamer

Average speed at peak times (8pm - 10pm) 187.40Mbps
Average download speed over 24hrs 202.72Mbps
Average upload speed at peak times (8pm - 10pm) 19.78Mbps
Average upload speed over 24hrs 20.16Mbps
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CarlT

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2016, 03:03:44 PM »

Taking it to the extreme you would describe the test at the start of this thread as showing a service not performing properly, 784.12Mb/s on a service that should be hitting 940Mb/s+
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Chrysalis

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Re: 1Gb downstream, 100Mb upstream cable released in Europe
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2016, 07:15:10 PM »

Well right now I am waiting to see what happens with the mysterious single threaded issues, whether if its a vendor problem which I think you said on cableforum or some kind of deliberate thing they trying out. As I think that issue is a fair chunk of the current performance complaints, so if that is resolved things will look more rosy.

780mbit instead of 940mbit providing jitter and packet loss is good is acceptable.  I have always said small dips are ok providing nothing breaks and key parameters such as jitter, latency and packet loss are not affected.

To achieve most of these requirements VM only need to ensure a channel never tops e.g. 80% utilisation over say a 5min avg and to achieve that apply a cap per customer (not per tcp stream) to reduce speeds to make that 20% unutilised which would prevent more serious problems, then set a process that if speeds throttle below a certian amount "at any time" a high priority upgrade process is kick started on capacity.  This would likely cost more money and it may upset the torrenters who take the lion share of bandwidth but it would be a better way forward. Basically like how entanet's old capping system used to work on the BT centrals.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 07:20:10 PM by Chrysalis »
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