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Author Topic: ADSL filters with FTTC  (Read 25783 times)

dfects

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ADSL filters with FTTC
« on: September 23, 2016, 09:48:33 AM »

Hiya,

We were finally able to order FTTC after being on adsl forever. We can only get Infinity 1 due to being about 1km in cable length from our cab and BT only offered a self install. The "smart" hub came with an adsl dongle so I replaced my xf-1e with this one thinking it may actually make a difference.

We've been having a few issues... each night it was resyncing and the sync speed on the down stream went from 36 to 37, 38 then 40 for two nights. The next night it dropped to 35 then to 32.4 :( The noise margin has also increased from 6.3 on initial sync to 9.1 and now 8.8 so I'm trying to find out why.

Anyway, two questions:

  • Can I use my XF-1E with fttc?
  • Could the bt filter be causing more interference which is affecting my sync speed/noise margin?
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NEXUS2345

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2016, 12:07:42 PM »

As you have only just had VDSL installed, it will still be in its training period. This means that you will likely see many resyncs as DLM works out the best place for your line. The increased SNRM implies that it has intervened to deal with a high error rate, probably with interleaving + RS error correction.

On a line with no faults, this shouldn't really have happened, so I would suggest that you try to get your hands on a DSLStats compatible modem or modem/router such as a HG612, or a ZyXEL VMG series (1312, and 8X24 series are good choices). This will allow us to see detailed information about your connection and work out if there is any cause for concern.

The training period is 10 days to my knowledge, so if you are still concerned it may be worth ringing BT and asking them to perform a GEA test to detect any faults from their end. Be careful though, as some faults, such as a rectified loop, are more often than not internal wiring issues, and if an engineer comes out and discovers this, there is a hefty fee, sometime up to £200.

Another thing you could do is go to this site and enter your phone number: https://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/adsl.htm?s_cid=ws_furls_adslchecker
This will allow you to find out which cabinet you are on, and your estimated speeds. You can then enter your phone number on this website: https://www.telecom-tariffs.co.uk/codelook.htm
This site will return a result showing your exchange. If you click on this, then click on 'List all x fibre cabinets', then find your cabinet in the list to show an approximate location and brand. The brand is the important thing in this case, as it will indicate whether or not you have access to a technology called G.Inp, which can be used as an alternative to interleaving + RS error correction on more stable lines.

On another note, what is your current ping? A high ping can indicate the use of interleaving on a line, so a ping higher than around 20ms can sometime be an indicator.
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ejs

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2016, 01:40:41 PM »

Considering you are using a plug-in filter rather than a filtered faceplate, the most important aspect is whether or not you have any other telephone sockets, even with nothing plugged into them. Unfiltered extension wiring acts as a "bridged tap", the length of internal wiring may not have mattered much for ADSL frequencies, but it's much worse for VDSL2 frequencies.

On the general subject of filter quality, see MR-261.
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dfects

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2016, 03:21:35 PM »

Thanks for the replies. From my understanding from research, I thought on vdsl provisioned lines only the first 2-3 days were considered the training period of sorts? There is a lot of confusing information on this.

Its a new build house, only 3-4 years old. There are extensions everywhere, but when we had our phone activated I asked the OR to disconnect all the extensions and just leave the master socket connected which he did. The grey box is literally the other side of the wall from the faceplate, so the cable length shouldn't be more than maybe 50 cm between them.

On speed tests and often in games my ping is still around the 18-20ms mark even though we're currently banded to 32.4 mb. The upstream is still on 6.2 noise margin and syncing 9.68, which is about 2mb above the speed estimate!?

I did have a few bits of equipment close to the home hub/faceplate including an Intel Nuc pc, a raspberry pi, two external hdds and an old wireless (probably not dect) cordless phone. I've since removed all these in case its causing interference? Not sure how likely this is. My DSL has stayed connected since (nearly 2 days) with a margin of 8.8 but not sure if this is due to the lower speed banding or the interference being removed.

I've tried a quiet line test, but only into the adsl filter as I don't want to risk killing the DSL sync again in case DLM can improve our line. There is a very very faint constant hum on the line but no crackling, pops, etc. I'm not sure if the hum is the cheap corded phones speaker/microphone or an actual issue, but its very quiet.

The cabinet we're connected to (only became active maybe 3-4 weeks ago, we're likely to be the first on it) is listed as Huawei.

Does DLM slowly recover the noise margin? Or if the interference was removed would the noise margin drop straight away on the next update? I can see every day at 8.54am (no idea why) it gets a transmission on TR69 and has adjusted the noise margin then (from 9.1 to 8.8).
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 03:24:04 PM by dfects »
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2016, 03:57:21 PM »

For a G.993.2 (VDSL2) circuit provided by Openreach there is no training period.

Assuming that the circuit was active with a state of synchronism between the modem and the DSLAM on the day of provision, then the DLM will begin monitoring (and adjusting circuit the parameters, if it considers such adjustment is necessary) from the second day following the circuit's provision. The DLM will then continue to monitor (and adjust) the circuit from that day onwards.
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dfects

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2016, 04:11:22 PM »

Thanks for the reply :) That makes sense! The strange thing is after the first 3-4 days our speed actually increased for 2 days to 40mb which it stayed synced at for 24 hours each time? Then after those two days it dropped to 35 then to 32.4 each night.

The only thing that changed is I checked the hub with a contactless (infrared) thermometer as it has restricted airflow where it is and in doing so, I noticed the adsl line wasn't fully inserted into the hub and pushed it in until it the clip clicked into place!? Surely inserting the cable properly didn't cause extra interference! It didn't desync when I did this it stayed connected.

Really hoping DLM drops the noise margin and removes the banding in the next few days after removing all the sources of interference I can but will monitor. Will look at getting a modem that gives actual stats too.
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2016, 04:44:25 PM »

If the DLM decides to manipulate a circuit's parameters, it will usually do so once per 24 hour period. However if there is severe disturbance/disruption to the circuit then there may be multiple DLM intervention events within a 24 hour period, in an attempt to attain stability.

The overall aim of the DLM is to try to keep a circuit operating in a stable fashion. Whilst it is adjusting the circuit parameters the synchronisation speed may fall or rise . . .



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dfects

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2016, 05:07:08 PM »

Do you know if DLM will slowly lower the noise margin if its going to? Or can it assess the noise on the line and make large adjustments straight away? I noticed when it increased it went to 7.9, 8.8 then 9.1 so hoping it steps down the noise margin over the next few days/weeks and maybe readjusts the banding. Feel in an awkward situation now where I don't know if the problems resolved or whether there is actually a line issue.
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2016, 05:27:17 PM »

Do you know if DLM will slowly lower the noise margin if its going to? Or can it assess the noise on the line and make large adjustments straight away?

The DLM does not directly adjust the SNRM. There is a target SNRM defined for the circuit, which is 6 dB. (Though there has been some testing of a 3 dB target SNRM.) Other influences will cause the instantaneous, moment by moment, SNRM to vary from the defined target. The difference between the average, instantaneous, SNRM and the target SNRM should be regarded as a "buffer zone" which arises as a result of those other adverse influences upon the circuit.

Quote
I noticed when it increased it went to 7.9, 8.8 then 9.1 so hoping it steps down the noise margin over the next few days/weeks

That could happen. Or there could be a reason to induce a resynchronisation event, in which case a "step change" in the SNRM may be observed. It is important that all of the circuit parameters are considered and not to focus on just one of them.

Quote
and maybe readjusts the banding.

Has it been conclusively determined that your circuit is banded?  :-\
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j0hn

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2016, 05:50:28 PM »

do you have access to a modem that gives true connection stats? like the white openreach Huawei HG612? I'm pretty sure your connection isn't banded.
Quote
DSL uptime:
1 Days, 5 Hours 15 Minutes 10 Seconds
Data rate:
9.68 kbps / 32.40 kbps
Maximum data rate:
9678 / 39063
Noise margin:
6.1 / 8.8
Line attenuation:
25.1
Signal attenuation:
VPI / VCI:
0/38
Modulation:
G_993_2_ANNEX_B
Latency type:
Fast Path
I have no idea if "Maximum data rate" is the current sync, or max attainable. Either way neither of those figures are banded figures.
A banded circuit will sync at the exact same figure every time. It may not be possible to conclusively tell with notsosmart hub
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dfects

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2016, 06:02:22 PM »

You're right, I don't know for certain. Its based mainly on the speed dropping from speeds like 40.78mb, 40.48mb to exactly 35.00mb then exactly 32.4mb, both of which seem to be banding limits on https://community.plus.net/t5/Library/FTTC-DLM-What-it-is-How-it-works/ba-p/1322799 .

I don't know either what the exact stats shown on the smart hub are, other than the "Data Rate" is actually the sync speed as its shown on the "basic" page, it shows in kbps on the tech log page due to a bug but is actually mbps. The Maximum data rate has varied with each sync, but the lowest i've seen is 3750ish:

here are the current stats I can get from both pages:

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j0hn

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2016, 06:19:15 PM »

ahhh, I see the confusion. The term banding/banded we are referring to is where DLM puts a limit on the sync speed. The connection will never be able to sync above this, until a DLM reset is performed. What you point to on Plusnet appears to be something different that in all honesty I'm not familiar with. Is that not related to ip profiles?
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dfects

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2016, 06:31:01 PM »

ahhh, I see the confusion. The term banding/banded we are referring to is where DLM puts a limit on the sync speed. The connection will never be able to sync above this, until a DLM reset is performed. What you point to on Plusnet appears to be something different that in all honesty I'm not familiar with. Is that not related to ip profiles?

I'm confused, is the "maximum data rate" actually the sync rate and what the hub is calling the sync rate some form of ip profiling based on the noise/other variables? Sorry I'm pretty new to all this. Our ADSL connection was pretty stable for 3 years with a draytek vigor 120 on this line I so didn't touch it and before that I've only dealt with docsis on virgin connections.
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ejs

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2016, 06:44:33 PM »

The "maximum attainable net data rate", labelled as "Maximum data rate" in your screenshots, is your modem's estimate of what the maximum speed might be under the current conditions, it takes into account the target SNRM, but ignores the banding.

The Plusnet library article about FTTC DLM sounds like a reasonable summary of FTTC banding. The bands can set a minimum and maximum speed. The article is about two years old, so the exact bands may have changed since then.

The IP Profile is something completely different. The IP Profile is simply a number, about 96% of the data rate (sync speed), to allow for some of the overheads (such as the PPP layer), and give an idea of the throughput (file download speeds) possible for the data rate shown by the modem.
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dfects

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Re: ADSL filters with FTTC
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2016, 07:03:22 PM »

Thanks, that makes it a lot clearer. So the chances are my line is actually banded? Not sure what the best option is here. To wait and see if removing all the electronics from near the hub/faceplate have made a difference and DLM improves our speed over the next few days/weeks or take the hit and disconnect to do a quiet line test.

Will DLM ever actually move me up a band?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 07:12:24 PM by dfects »
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