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Author Topic: NBN and the missing superfast customers  (Read 3457 times)

WWWombat

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NBN and the missing superfast customers
« on: August 20, 2016, 11:39:50 PM »

Oh wow. Some really interesting numbers from Australia, about the take-up of packages on the FTTP portion of NBN:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/nbn-missing-superfast-customers-robert-kenny


Source: Link taken from BT's response to the USO, as seen in the thread discussing the number of videos possible at USO speeds.
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Weaver

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2016, 09:25:53 AM »

Is there a caption explaining the graph anywhere?
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WWWombat

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2016, 09:57:44 AM »

I'll assume you've done the obvious, and read the article, so...

The 5 lines are the 5 main speed tiers on Australia's NBN.

For each time point, NBN have published how many subscribers have purchased a package on each of the tiers ... and, of course,  that total is rising. I found a copy of the stats for the 3 months after this graph was produced, so I'll add that here later.

From these totals, you can calculated what percentage of the total each tier represents - giving an idea of popularity.

For example, back in March 2013, the 12/1 tier was most popular (40% of all subscribers chose it) and 100/40 was second. By March 2016, the 25/5 tier was most popular (at 46% of all subscribers) while the 100/40 package's popularity had waned, and was down to third.

All the figures are restricted to the FTTP variant of NBN, so there are no distance limitations. This is purely down to choice, and the willingness to open the wallet.
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Starman

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2016, 10:48:16 AM »

Do we know how these prices compare?
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Weaver

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2016, 11:35:43 AM »

Users come in all shapes and sizes. Some locals around here are extremely stingy, some have the money and don't wish to part with any of it, and others are ridiculously hard up.

My sister said she couldn't tell any difference when she went from 50 kbps (plus massive data compression wherever possible) to 500 kbps fixed rate ADSL1, apart from its being miles cheaper. She really was truly getting the full 500 kbps that she was paying for. It was sometimes ten times faster - on uncompressible data - and she in fact had been perfectly satisfied with dialup. She did a bit of email and a lot of web browsing, and I could even do Windows Remote Desktop / RDP into her WinNT box.

Websites have grown ridiculously bloated and graphics-rich over the years, and are now full of huge lumps of JavaScript, which should at least be compressible, but may not even be properly set up to be fully cacheable as they should be. So because of this crazy or lazy bloat, users probably might not get on too well with dialup these days. Anyway, many users' needs are just extremely modest, and that's just the way it is. 10 Mbps, never mind 100 Mbps, is irrelevant to many of the "dialup-ok" type of users.
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phi2008

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2016, 11:54:30 AM »

Looking at the Telstra NBN packages may explain the popularity of the 25/5 package. There are three packages on offer, differing in data caps - 100GB/month@$75, 500GB/month@$95(£55), 1000GB/month@$115(£67). Standard speed appears to be 12Mb down, 5Mb up, but they offer a free boost to 25Mb - so I suppose the average customer is going to settle for that. Higher speeds are available for a bit extra(from forum post, 2015 prices?) -

Quote
Very Fast Speed Boost ($10 per month) can provide speeds up to 50/20 Mbps into the home.

Super Fast Speed Boost ($20 per month) can provide speeds up to 100/40 Mbps into the home.


Would I pay £73/month for 50/20? Debatable.  :-\
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Starman

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2016, 12:15:26 PM »

That explains much if it then tbh.
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Weaver

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2016, 01:09:12 PM »

I'm paying well over £150 p/m for ~6.5 Mbps down, ~0.8 Mbps up.  ;D ???

My data download usage is reasonably modest, upstream is free.

Perhaps the Scottish Parliament could learn a few tips from Australia?
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WWWombat

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2016, 09:19:50 PM »

@phi2008, @starman
Price-wise, you have to remember that Australia might as well be a different universe. Broadband - as a whole - is way more expensive than here. NBN, by itself, isn't particularly a price-premium.

The basic Optus (non-incumbent) package for broadband is $80 all-in, for unlimited data. That covers the basic package on old-style ADSL/2+ copper, or on the Optus cable network, or on the NBN (which itself can be FTTP, FTTC, wireless or satellite). That's £46pm as the starting point for broadband of any "unlimited" kind.

If you choose to be connected via NBN, that $80 gets you onto the 12/1 package. From there it costs
- An extra $10 (£6) to bump up to the 25/5 package, or
- An extra $20 (£12) to bump up to the 50/20 package, or
- An extra $30 ($18) to bump up to the 100/40 package.
- Unknown amounts to jump to higher packages (there are 3 more, with the maximum being 1000/40).

Here in the UK, entry-level fibre (40/2 or 40/10) seems to attract a £5 premium nowadays, while higher fibre (80/20) seems to attract a £10 premium (at Plusnet-style prices, rather than incumbent prices).

Within the NBN sub-group that are FTTP customers (and remains the biggest subgroup still), so have the full choice of speeds, it is interesting to see that
- One third (33%) choose to pay no premium, for 12/1
- Nearly half (46%) choose to pay a £6 premium, for 25/5
- 5% choose to pay the £12 premium, for 50/20
- 15% choose to pay the £18 premium, for 100/40

To my mind, there's a reasonable match with what we see within BT Retail:
- A good-sized chunk of people willing to stick to ADSL-speeds and ADSL-prices
- Of the people willing to pay a premium for "fibre", most opt for the minimum premium level
- But some are willing to jump into the higher premium level.

The top-level residential level on NBN, 100/40, seems to attract about the same kind of percentage of the market as VM's top tier does within their subscribers.

Aside: I noted that BT's USO submission talked of an EU concept: That the USO speed should be set to the 80th percentile speed. BT made the point that it should be the 80th percentile /as chosen/ by users, rather than /line capability/. And ... the 80th percentile in the NBN chooses 12/1.

@Weaver ... In the NBN, I think you'd very firmly be in the "satellite" bracket, with 6/1 available. Heasta might merit wireless coverage (of 12/1 or 25/2), which you might be able to access.
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WWWombat

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2016, 09:23:51 PM »

I found a copy of the stats for the 3 months after this graph was produced, so I'll add that here later.

Here they are. The graph was derived from the "FTTP" column, but for the data releases prior to this one (which is June 2016).

Edit: SIO = "services in operation"
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 09:26:27 PM by WWWombat »
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renluop

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2016, 11:22:25 PM »

 WWWombat
Quote
Price-wise, you have to remember that Australia might as well be a different universe. Broadband - as a whole - is way more expensive than here.
OT, a little, but how do those prices compare to the average household income levels of the respective countries?
Exchange rates are not that good for comparisons,
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gt94sss2

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2016, 11:28:49 PM »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

The average wage was higher in the UK but take home pay is more in Australia due to lower taxes. The figures are a few years old so won't take account of recent exchange rate movements (especially Brexit) so the true figures for the UK should now be lower.

Similarly household median incomes are/were higher in Australia
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 11:30:56 PM by gt94sss2 »
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renluop

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2016, 09:11:22 AM »

^^
Thanks, vary interesting!
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phi2008

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2016, 10:55:04 AM »

Within the NBN sub-group that are FTTP customers (and remains the biggest subgroup still), so have the full choice of speeds, it is interesting to see that
- One third (33%) choose to pay no premium, for 12/1
- Nearly half (46%) choose to pay a £6 premium, for 25/5
- 5% choose to pay the £12 premium, for 50/20
- 15% choose to pay the £18 premium, for 100/40

Doesn't this just tell us about today's users and their usage requirements? Not what tomorrow's users will require? If the premise is users are content with very low speed broadband now and for ever then I'm going to reject that in the longer term.

Bandwidth matters, at some point in the decades to come we probably will see a "sweet spot" when we've essentially run out of things to do with our connections - but I don't think 12/1 is that sweet spot(or 25/5, or 50/20).

Initially broadband was a bit of a novelty, people just used it for similar things to dial-up, perhaps there was one person in the house who knew what the Internet was. Then more people started using the household connection and more features were exploited. Broadband starts being used more like a utility and not a niche service.

I noticed Sky's desktop Now TV app was pulling 6.5-8Mb for a basic stream(720p?) now if three people in a household were watching TV that would be around 24Mb/s and we're still really at the start for Internet TV(more users, much higher resolutions to come, etc) - Cisco estimate 54% of Internet traffic will be video by 2019(41% now). And what about cloud services? Backup for example, I use a portable 8TB HD(used, then moved off site) rather than cloud storage because it's currently faster and cheaper.

Essentially what I'm getting at is that although we're not at the beginning of broadband use, the world has a way to go before we no longer find ways to exploit bandwidth(even if we only make proper use of full bandwidth in "bursts" as and when necessary).
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WWWombat

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Re: NBN and the missing superfast customers
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2016, 04:04:32 PM »

Doesn't this just tell us about today's users and their usage requirements? Not what tomorrow's users will require? If the premise is users are content with very low speed broadband now and for ever then I'm going to reject that in the longer term.

Absolutely right - it shows today's requirements, not tomorrow's. But it happens to show that today's requirements seem to fit healthily within the scope of the broadband networks we in the UK have built (by VM and Openreach largely) for today's users. That today's users aren't really demanding more ... yet.

Tomorrow is indeed another matter, and there's a fine balance to be played between upgrading an old network for tomorrow vs just plumping for fibre. The Nesta report on FTTH cost vs benefit illustrates this, with the quote below taken from this report.

Bandwidth matters, at some point in the decades to come we probably will see a "sweet spot" when we've essentially run out of things to do with our connections - but I don't think 12/1 is that sweet spot(or 25/5, or 50/20).

The decision about what upgrade is worthwhile, where, and when, is a tricky one ... partly dependent on whether that "sweet spot" exists, and what generation of hardware hits it. My recent post over in the nearby thread shows some of the "guesses" at tomorrow's needs.

I suspect that 40/10 or 50/20 might turn out to be a sweet spot, for some people, for quite some time. But certainly not everyone ... where some might indeed require full fibre.

For the latter, I'm quite happy believing that such users should pay for this themselves, as a higher connection cost. But it should be a choice they can make - so we need a proper product for this (some variant of FTTPoD) that people can reliably order.

I noticed Sky's desktop Now TV app was pulling 6.5-8Mb for a basic stream(720p?) now if three people in a household were watching TV that would be around 24Mb/s and we're still really at the start for Internet TV(more users, much higher resolutions to come, etc)

If NowTV are using that much, then there's a good bet it is H.264. Perhaps you'll be happier at the advent of HEVC, where 720p might reduce to around 3Mbps.

Being "at the start for internet TV" is a hard thing to measure. I'd bet that, for any one household (which is where access speed matters), that house has either not started yet, or has engaged with catchup TV only, or has fully engaged with Netflix, Amazon prime, NowTV etc; IMO a house consuming 3 NowTV streams simultaneously is *far* past the start.

For the country as a whole (where total bandwidth matters, on the core network), we probably are indeed at the start - and core volumes will only grow. The NBN article makes that distinction clear: where average line speed has gone down slightly, the nationwide core volume has doubled.

The good thing about being at the start is that we've further to go down the route of improving the codec too.

And what about cloud services? Backup for example, I use a portable 8TB HD(used, then moved off site) rather than cloud storage because it's currently faster and cheaper.

Actually, I tend to think of "cloud backup" as one of the worst examples of cloud services. To me, it has the feel of a temporary "I don't really trust the cloud" service, "so I'm keeping all my documents in the house". It is the first cloud service people think about ... because they haven't properly thought about putting all their files out there yet.

When you trust the cloud properly, then your files/documents are all out on the cloud always ... and the transactions are small ones each time you bring a copy into the house to read/stream/edit, and send a copy out of the house when you write/save it. Backup is then a matter of being an intra-cloud service.

Essentially what I'm getting at is that although we're not at the beginning of broadband use, the world has a way to go before we no longer find ways to exploit bandwidth(even if we only make proper use of full bandwidth in "bursts" as and when necessary).

I agree that we will continue to find ways to exploit the bandwidth.

However, new services we've seen so far don't really do anything to create new types of data. We still have small messages, or documents to read, or voice conversations, or produce/consume video ... new variations on these themes, certainly, but no new types. So I find it hard to believe that a household will need real-time bandwidth to consume much more than a few decent quality video streams.

Whatever the new service, it'll be hard for 4 people to consume more than 4 video streams until we learn to use our 2 eyes independently. So I think N streamed video services is still going to be our edge case.
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