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[rustybob]

Not really sure if I should be posting this here or starting a thread so apologies if this is the wrong place.

I'm looking to move from my current ADSL package to fibre and am looking at who to go with. I've just done a search on my exchange via SamKnows and it's saying that Vodafone have a 'LLU presence'.

Would there be any benefit to me going with Vodafone because of this compared to AN Other company who uses non LLU?

Thanks

[rustybob]

So, just finished an online chat session with Vodafone and thought is was worthwhile posting a few things I found out:-

Q1 - Can you use your own modem / route: Yes
Q2 - Are there any download limits and what is your FUP: There's no limits, it's truly unlimited
Q3 - Do you block any websites: Not sure - I was given a link to their T&Cs
Q4 - Do you apply any traffic shaping: No, it's the same speed all the time
Q5 - What speed would I get (I had to provide postcode and house number) - for this I got the same response as other providers for min and max except for guaranteed min speed. Others have all quoted me 19Mbps: 30Mbps minimum guaranteed download speed
Q6 - Why is your minimum guaranteed 30Mbps when others have quoted 19Mbps: We, as Vodafone will set up new Fibre ports in your area that will give you a dedicated connection from the assigned ports to your home (FTTC - Fibre to the Cabinet) . It will not be a shared connection where the speed actually gets divided while transmitting

Sounds v tempting at £28/month for a a 76mb fibre package including phone 

What do people think?

[psychopomp1]

So, just finished an online chat session with Vodafone and thought is was worthwhile posting a few things I found out:-

Q1 - Can you use your own modem / route: Yes

They seem to have stopped giving out router login details irrespective of what their sales staff tell you....
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,18652.msg335011.html#msg335011

[rustybob]

Hey psychopomp1, thanks for the link. I was thinking I may go with Vodafone but I'm not too sure now given the info in that other thread.

My experience via chat was really positive and I do have an email of the transcript stating I could use my own router. Wonder what they'd say if later they refused to give out the relevant info and I then produced it 

[RealAleMadrid]

I would be very suspicious, mainly because there response to your Q6 is complete and utter rubbish. They do not have their own FTTC ports, they use the standard Openreach cabinets and phone lines. I know you were talking to sales but who comes up with this nonsense for their scripts.

[rustybob]

I would be very suspicious, mainly because there response to your Q6 is complete and utter rubbish. They do not have their own FTTC ports, they use the standard Openreach cabinets and phone lines. I know you were talking to sales but who comes up with this nonsense for their scripts.

OK, decision made, won't be going with Vodafone.

I'm almost tempted to post the email transcript of the chat session considering most of it is starting to sound like absolute ******** 

Just for my own awareness, what does it mean if my exchange has a Vodafone LLU. I had assumed that was something to do with their answer (bear with me, I'm new to all of this)

[kitz]

As psycopomp pointed out they seem to have recently changed their stance on giving out login details.
zaphron hasnt got back to us yet to let us know how he got on taking it further,  after they refused to give him a login despite being told he could use his own modem.

We, as Vodafone will set up new Fibre ports in your area that will give you a dedicated connection from the assigned ports to your home (FTTC - Fibre to the Cabinet) . It will not be a shared connection where the speed actually gets divided while transmitting

Hmmm...  thats a bit of an exaggeration    The ports are owned by Openreach.  The connection most certainly is contended with other users down their backhaul and across their network. 

---
ETA
My post crossed with RealAleMadrid's which wasnt there when I started my reply. 

[kitz]

Just for my own awareness, what does it mean if my exchange has a Vodafone LLU. I had assumed that was something to do with their answer (bear with me, I'm new to all of this)

It means that they use their own backhaul pipe from the exchange rather than using BTw's backhaul.

Note: "Their own backhaul" means it is shared by all Vodafone customers.  In the same way that with adsl, the backhaul bandwidth is shared with other users.

[rustybob]

It means that they use their own backhaul pipe from the exchange rather than using BTw's backhaul.

Note: "Their own backhaul" means it is shared by all Vodafone customers.  In the same way that with adsl, the backhaul bandwidth is shared with other users.

Got it. Is there any benefit to that?

The way Vodafone worded it suggest there is but I'm now very doubtful. 

[psychopomp1]

Got it. Is there any benefit to that?

The way Vodafone worded it suggest there is but I'm now very doubtful. 

That's probably the only truth they told you  It means that from your exchange onwards, you will not be using BT/Openreach's network and Vodafone have 100% control of that. Their network is supposed to be pretty good, they have multiple 10gb/s pipes at exchanges which they've LLU'd so plenty of bandwidth capacity - TalkTalk & Sky use 1gb/s pipes. AFAIK being LLU they don't use any sort of profile cap on ADSL2+ and FTTC services. TBH if you can live with using their router, they'd not bad at all (given user feedback so far) and whilst their technical support isn't at the level of AAISP or Talktalk Business, they're pretty competent - certainly better than their sales staff!!

[Ronski]

Rustybob as for what speeds you'll  get put your details in the link below, if you don't have a BT landline number then use the full address  checker option.

http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/#


All ISPs get the same estimate but some chose to quote the lower figure's. What you actually  get will vary depending on the quality and length of your line.

[rustybob]

Thanks Ronski  .

I've given that a try and the clean high/low rates are what every ISP is quoting. Some however are also giving me a guaranteed minimum rate and with the exception of Talk Talk and Vodafone this is 18.8 to 19Mbps.

Vodafone have given me 30Mbps and when I queried it they gave my the response to Q6 above? Talk Talk have quoted 14Mbps and I'm guessing other providers use BTW hence the consistent ~19 figure.

At the time of my 'chat' with Vodafone I didn't really understand much about LLUs or what having a presence at my exchange meant but, given the comments above I'm assuming this is because they have more bandwidth capacity than say BTW or TT?

It has got me thinking though - how can I find out how much bandwidth each provider has and how much is being used as this will surely influence my speed, especially at periods of high demand/usage?

[Weaver]

@rustybob There will be a bottleneck somewhere, and obviously this is usually your line. In the case where you are talking to a particular web server, that server or the pipe into it could be overloaded though. If your particular ISP has lots of capacity (and that also has to apply to partner carriers if the ISP uses e.g. BTW or TTB for access from customers) into its network and to the wider internet then as long as that's enough considering the weight of traffic from their user base then its good enough. So you want an ISP that either has high capacity links or low-usage customers or few customers. Traffic capacity obviously has to be relative to the number and type of customers that the ISP has. Networks that offer QoS (quality of service) can prioritise some traffic types over others, so that packets get sent first and jump over queues. This reduces latency dramatically and can improve throughput.

To answer your question about how to find out. If your ISP publishes congestion reports then that's a plus. ;-) Otherwise it’s probably a matter of digging around, asking users, rumour mill, or perhaps looking at the results of those speed testers that record which ISP is in use, although these are very difficult to interpret as you can't know how long lines are or whether users’ modems are any good. ISPReview is worth a look as it has users' speed opinions in it. Others might have some constructive suggestions.

[rustybob]

@rustybob There will be a bottleneck somewhere, and obviously this is usually your line. In the case where you are talking to a particular web server, that server or the pipe into it could be overloaded though. If your particular ISP has lots of capacity (and that also has to apply to partner carriers if the ISP uses e.g. BTW or TTB for access from customers) into its network and to the wider internet then as long as that's enough considering the weight of traffic from their user base then its good enough. So you want an ISP that either has high capacity links or low-usage customers or few customers. Traffic capacity obviously has to be relative to the number and type of customers that the ISP has. Networks that offer QoS (quality of service) can prioritise some traffic types over others, so that packets get sent first and jump over queues. This reduces latency dramatically and can improve throughput.

To answer your question about how to find out. If your ISP publishes congestion reports then that's a plus. ;-) Otherwise it’s probably a matter of digging around, asking users, rumour mill, or perhaps looking at the results of those speed testers that record which ISP is in use, although these are very difficult to interpret as you can't know how long lines are or whether users’ modems are any good. ISPReview is worth a look as it has users' speed opinions in it. Others might have some constructive suggestions.

Thanks Weaver. I've put my investigative hat on  and it looks like I'll be OK if I go with BTW.

I'm on the Chesterfield exchange an pre July 2016 people with say a normal connection speed of around 50 or 60mb were experiencing speeds of only 7.6Mbps at 9.00pm. BT acknowledged a congestion issues and added further capacity in two stages - 14/07/16 and 22/07/16. Post these dates, the same users are quoting speeds of 50Mbps at 9.00pm so it looks like BTW would be a good option.

With regard to TT, I've a friend with them who can loose some of his speed at certain times. Was never really sure of why but I now have my suspicions, assuming I'm not jumping to the wrong conclusion? Probably need to do a little more research on TT though if I'm honest. With regard to Vodafone, there seems very little info out there. Given previous comments I'm guessing they would be OK, however, I've been trying to use their online 'chat' facility all day and keep getting a response of "We're sorry, all our advisers are busy - Unfortunately none of our Advisers are available to chat to you at this time. Please try again shortly". Not great if it was urgent and sort of makes the service pointless!

I should probably have a look at Sky too given Sky, TT and Vodafone all have an LLU presence.

Thanks

[NewtronStar]

If you have a LLU presence at your local exchange you would be mad not to make use of those LLU ISP's as the price per month would be significantly lower than without LLU all thanks to OFCOM