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Author Topic: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky  (Read 6720 times)

busby

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Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« on: August 13, 2016, 10:15:52 AM »

Hi All,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Just thought I'd share my experience with getting an OR engineer to do a DLM reset.

After the G.INP debacle on ECI cabs, after G.INP had been removed, my line had clearly been banded. It ALWAYS connected at 32400, and interleaved. I left it a couple of months but no change.

I got in touch with BT via their web chat thing, and after about an hour I lost my rag after he sent me a link about changing WiFi channels. Clearly, he didn't understand my issue. I demanded to speak to second line support or a manager and he put me through to his manager who without any problem raised a fault to OR. No messing about connecting to the master socket etc. etc.

So the engineer turned up and I explained the situation, he had no idea what G.INP was, he said "you know more than me"  :D

He plugged his test box into the master socket and messed about for a bit. Then I said "does the line need a DLM reset". To my surprise, he said "I'm just doing that now" It all seemed to be done via his iPhone. He didn't have to go to the cabinet.

After the reset, no more banding, connecting at ~36000 fast path  ;D

I've read on here that OR won't do DLM resets unless they've fixed a fault. My experience suggests otherwise.

I guess it's luck of the draw, but if you are persistant and say the right thing to the OR engineer, it can be done.

Great forum BTW
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Weaver

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2016, 10:38:51 AM »

A warm welcome to you.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2016, 11:19:57 AM »

I've read on here that OR won't do DLM resets unless they've fixed a fault. My experience suggests otherwise.


Sounds like you've had a proper numpty attend your house. The fact he doesn't know what G.INP is, solidifies my thoughts.

For info purposes, we are told NOT to perform a DLM reset unless a fault has been identified and repaired. Of course, as with anything in life, there are going to be anomalies to this rule. I've covered examples of these in posts all over this forum.

What you experienced was an engineer who a) Hasn't had the right training, or b) Is sh1t-scared of his performance stats and has done a simple reset to be able to move on quickly.

Your circuit may well stay stable due to falling into one of the anomaly categories stated above, or it may well over time degrade again ??.
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highpriest

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2016, 11:23:01 AM »

That suggests that it is something that can be done remotely. Why do we keep getting told that a DLM reset is something that can only be done by plugging a piece of equipment directly into a cab?

I've always found it funny that a software operation on a piece of kit that is connected to the internet with tens of gigabits of bandwidth requires a man with a van carrying exotic cables :)
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busby

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2016, 11:28:01 AM »

What you experienced was an engineer who a) Hasn't had the right training, or b) Is sh1t-scared of his performance stats and has done a simple reset to be able to move on quickly

b) is correct as his parting words were "this is the easiest job I've had today"
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Black Sheep

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2016, 12:20:40 PM »

That suggests that it is something that can be done remotely. Why do we keep getting told that a DLM reset is something that can only be done by plugging a piece of equipment directly into a cab?

I've always found it funny that a software operation on a piece of kit that is connected to the internet with tens of gigabits of bandwidth requires a man with a van carrying exotic cables :)

Of course it can be done remotely  :-\ I don't know who's telling you any different, but it's certainly not on this forum.

For info, it can be reset via the engineers phone, or through a PC/Laptop ..... there is no physical connection needed whatsoever. The rules that are laid out though stipulate that a DLM reset should NOT be carried out just because the EU/ISP say so, usually a hard fault will have been diagnosed and repaired before such a reset will be performed.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2016, 12:24:57 PM »

What you experienced was an engineer who a) Hasn't had the right training, or b) Is sh1t-scared of his performance stats and has done a simple reset to be able to move on quickly

b) is correct as his parting words were "this is the easiest job I've had today"

Which suggests it's actually a) IMHO.  :)

in my experience, the 'Bodgit & Scarper' merchants will concoct an elaborate story, to cover the simplicity of just performing a DLM reset. It would seem your engineer was just blundering through ???

Caveat: This is all pure guess work as other remedial work may have been carried out by said engineer, that you yourself aren't aware of ??.  :)
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samwise78

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2016, 01:47:56 PM »

I had OR attend on Thursday  - two guys turned up as one of them was on light duties and they seemed to disagree on whether a DLM reset was needed / appropriate as they hadn't actually fixed anything.
The older of the two engineers said he always does a reset as a matter of course on every broadband job he goes on - and one was done before they left as I'm back on fastpath with G.INP disabled & banding gone, but still on a lower sync than I should achieve (see separate thread)
Neither were ADSL/VDSL savvy ("What's interleaving, crosstalk, FECs etc etc?") so I suspect it's luck of the draw vs training/skillset vs job stats that dictates whether you get one or not.

Cheers
Sam
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busby

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2016, 02:28:06 PM »

Well, it shouldn't be luck of the draw TBH. They should have a set procedure (plus people who who know what's what).

If I have a problem with my electricity, (which is exceptionally rare), I don't get an engineer turn up and say sorry you're too far away from the power station so we can only give you 100 volts, but then national grid was set up before all that mattered was shareholder profits.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2016, 02:34:35 PM »

Well, it shouldn't be luck of the draw TBH. They should have a set procedure (plus people who who know what's what).

If I have a problem with my electricity, (which is exceptionally rare), I don't get an engineer turn up and say sorry you're too far away from the power station so we can only give you 100 volts, but then national grid was set up before all that mattered was shareholder profits.

They do have a set procedure ...... I've outlined above what that procedure is ....... we do not reset the DLM unless a fault has been found and repaired.

The electric analogy doesn't work I'm afraid ........... two completely separate technologies.

As in all walks of life/industry ...... you will get them that can do and them that can't do, no amount of training will see a difference in the 'Can't do' folk.
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licquorice

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2016, 02:38:27 PM »

However, I fail to see the logic. Surely it is simpler to perform a DLM reset as a matter of course on every job and then let DLM sort it out afterwards if it needs to. After all, that is the purpose of DLM.
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busby

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2016, 02:41:08 PM »

we do not reset the DLM unless a fault has been found and repaired

Well, that wasn't my experience. I'm convinced there was no fault on the line, just the removal of G.INP screwed things up. I'm not complaining, just trying to highlight the difference in service that everyone seems to get from OR.
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WWWombat

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2016, 03:21:07 PM »

However, I fail to see the logic. Surely it is simpler to perform a DLM reset as a matter of course on every job and then let DLM sort it out afterwards if it needs to. After all, that is the purpose of DLM.

I'm torn.

An engineer who fails to fix (or doesn't know how to) real physical faults (especially ones causing high error rates, rather than low sync speeds) can make things look like they've been fixed with a DLM reset. The EU only finds out otherwise after 48 hours, when DLM re-intervenes. That 48 hour delay is the problem... and the EU gets to pay through a new ISP fault process after the original gets closed.

Is that the norm, though? Where an engineer can't fix a fault? I'm not sure it is really.

So I'm really for allowing a DLM reset after an engineer has paid the line any attention as a matter of course. Including where the fix was voice-oriented. It really cannot make things worse, but it might make things better - even though the 48 hour delay might still be masking things.

And ... given that DLM has been behaving rather strangely recently, with strange resets, inappropriate banding, unreliable DLM de-intervention etc, I'm all for making DLM resets even easier. A badly-implemented DLM process requires easier manual intervention ... and the evidence suggests that DLM is going loopy right now!

Possible idea:
Perhaps when DLM is reset by the engineer, they also get sent a (reasonably-fast) indication as to whether DLM believes the line will be stable after 48 hours - perhaps by closer monitoring for the next few 15-minute bins. Something to confirm "you made a difference", rather than waiting 48 hours.

we do not reset the DLM unless a fault has been found and repaired

Well, that wasn't my experience. I'm convinced there was no fault on the line, just the removal of G.INP screwed things up. I'm not complaining, just trying to highlight the difference in service that everyone seems to get from OR.

There does appear to have been knock-on consequences from the ECI-G.INP removal where a DLM reset is beneficial. That, IMHO, ought to be a case for an automatic DLM reset ... but at least an allowable exception to the "don't reset DLM" rule.
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S.Stephenson

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2016, 03:27:01 PM »

Is being banded for an large amount of time without any indication of why (no errors etc.) not fault worthy?

Say an engineer tests the line and gets a sync of 57mbits whereas the attainable says 100mbits with a high noise margin surely that would be an indication of a problem?
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Black Sheep

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Re: Yes, you can get a DLM reset if you're lucky
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2016, 03:28:43 PM »

we do not reset the DLM unless a fault has been found and repaired

Well, that wasn't my experience. I'm convinced there was no fault on the line, just the removal of G.INP screwed things up. I'm not complaining, just trying to highlight the difference in service that everyone seems to get from OR.

Again, as I pointed out above ..... there will be anomalies, there always is.

I will agree with you that there are discrepancies in the certain aspects of BB engineering. That is why there is a set criteria lain down of exactly how to test a line, and exactly what to do dependant on the returned test results.

The issue is, should we all follow these scripted tests, you (as in the royal you) would be even more p1ssed off with the service given than you are now. The scripted tests take away the element of applied logic/knowledge from the engineer, and the service given then becomes just a tick-sheet exercise.

The plus side to these scripted tests is that they are there to protect, (draw a line in the sand if you like), Openreach and what is expected of them.
Read this forum, read other forums, and you will see the totally ridiculous trigger-point that some folk have regarding when they would request an engineering visit regarding their circuits performance !! Once our tests pass, and they receive the cost of the call-out, they soon stop the madness.

That is why I mentioned your 'Electricity analogy' as being dead in the water. Each EU has his/her own expectation of what is good/bad/middling when it comes down to broadband. Every single circuit is bespoke and will have different characteristics and elements affecting it.
Conversely, electric is electric ....... you turn the TV on and it works, you turn the kettle on and it works ..... etc etc ........ NO two broadband lines will be the same, and as mentioned it then depends on what the EU expects of their own circuit.

Add into the mix the sworn enemy that is 'intermittency', and it becomes a tricky business indeed.
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