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[sevenlayermuddle]

This is a subject that's been discussed before.  How do I know, when the cashier rings up a total that exceeds the normal contactless limit (£30), whether I'll be able to pay with my watch ?

Some new information has maybe evolved, thanks to my local Waitrose.  A few weeks ago, with a bill for £90 and a bit, the terminal displayed the 'contactless' symbol.  I offered forth my watch.   The checkout assistance explained, "Sorry Sir, that won't work".   But it did.

After several more visits to same Waitrose, I was never offered contactless payment again beyond £30.  But then just once, I was offered contactless for £40 and interestingly, it was the same til.  I formed a theory that particular terminal had been updated.   But yesterday, at a different til in same Waitrose, I was again able to pay.. £60 this time.

Interestingly, on the occasions when it works, the terminal simply shows the 'contactless' symbol, not the 'Apple' symbol, despite the fact that normal contactless payments exceeding £30 would presumably be rejected.

[broadstairs]

This is worrying from a fraud/theft perspective in that I understood that the limit was there in order to prevent large amounts of money being taken if the card/device had been stolen/cloned. It is not something I'd be happy with if I it happened to me, although I dont have the capability with my phone and nor do I want it although I do have contactless cards but that's because I dont have a choice.

Stuart

[sevenlayermuddle]

So far as I know, there is no change to the limit for contactless payment with a conventional card, that remains set at £30.   Personally it is the possibility of  accidental payments that worries me, and so I don't actually carry any such cards.

The difference with Apple Pay using the watch is that accidental payments are not possible, I need to deliberately double tap the side bar button to activate it each time I spend - it deactivates again after a few seconds.  That is why the banks are willing to remove the £30 limit.

It's also monitoring my pulse so if I remove it from my wrist, or if I die, it locks itself and then it needs a 6 digit pin to unlock it again.

The danger is it feels a bit like 'free shopping', I can imagine a strong temptation to overspend.

[mlmclaren]

The terminals always show the contactless symbol regardless of whether it will accept or not..

The reason for the contactless sales going through on certain tills and with certain cashiers is due to a configuration mishap...

This has happened before and the company or card machine vendors send updated configs out to be assigned to cashiers and the tills.

Also the same with Apple Pay and other Mobile payments... it's not mean't to work unless the Apple Symbol is present but it will but just come up as a credit card to the retailer....

However with Apple Pay there has been many occasions where payments have been taken twice or even 3 times in one occurrence... so its not recommended to use Apple Pay unless the contactless machine is advertising Apple Pay compatibility.

[sevenlayermuddle]

it's not mean't to work unless the Apple Symbol is present but it will but just come up as a credit card to the retailer....

Incorrect, Apple are quite clear that it can be used as long as either the normal 'contactless' symbol, or the Apple Pay logo, are displayed.

http://www.apple.com/uk/apple-pay/

However with Apple Pay there has been many occasions where payments have been taken twice or even 3 times in one occurrence... so its not recommended to use Apple Pay unless the contactless machine is advertising Apple Pay compatibility.

I had never heard of this.  A few minutes on Google reveals that Bank of America had some teething troubles, but no other bank seems to have been affected and  I can see no evidence that it was the fault of Apple Pay, or any evidence that anybody with authority is saying it's not recommended.   ? 

[sevenlayermuddle]

And curiouser still, I shopped in a Co-op yesterday, spend £40.  The terminal displayed both contactless & Apple Pay logos, but payment was declined... Limited to £30.

So, form observation, the rules seem to be...

In Waitrose, most terminals will only prompt for contactless payment (contactless symbol) for spends under £30, though a few display contactless for higher sums too.   Regardless of spend, Waitrose terminals never display the Apple Pay symbol.  But if I see the contactless symbol displayed, it seems Apple Pay will be accepted, even if far exceeding £30.

In Co-op, the terminal (sample of one) seemed to display contactless symbol, and Apple Pay symbol too, regardless of spend.   But payment is rejected if over £30.

Clear as mud, then. 

I did overhear the manager in a pub I frequent mention that contactless payment terminals were soon to be introduced.   I wonder, how much beer can I justify buying, in interests of academic research, to explore the effect exceeding their £30 limit?   

[speedyrite]

I'm fairly sure that the Quick Scan checkout at my local Waitrose always displays the Apple Pay logo on the card reader screen when I come to pay (usually >£60), which is ironic as my John Lewis Partnership card is *not* participating (yet, ?allegedly?) in Apple Pay, so I've never tried it. I'll pay more close attention when I shop there next week and confirm or otherwise.

[sevenlayermuddle]

My own comments re Waitrose relate to the old fashioned 'staffed' checkouts, the quick-scans may be different hardware but I'd certainly be interested to hear if so...

As things stand, I'm not at all sure that the Apple Pay symbol means anything at all as it's certainly not necessary for Apple Pay to work.    Cynically I wonder, do Apple simply 'sponsor' the manufacturer/vendor  to display it as advertising, same as PC manufacturers get paid  by Intel for putting an 'Intel inside' sticker on their tin work?

[speedyrite]

Tried to pay £67-ish using Apple Pay at the Quick Scan till this morning. The merchant terminal screen showed both contactless and Apple Pay symbols at the start of the payment process. Held iPhone to reader and got the tick on the iPhone screen and short vibration, indicating success. But the merchant terminal screen briefly flashed a message about needing to use another card and then reverted to the insert your card screen (requesting payment). No till receipt was produced at this point. So I paid by chip & pin using the usual (non-Apple Pay) card and the Quick Scan till then spat out the till receipt. Checked both card accounts online when I got back, pondering whether or not I have paid twice! (Don't think so, but it's not entirely clear because the the "Wallet" app on iPhone shows it as the last transaction on that card). The card I actually paid with shows it as a pending transaction. The card I tried to pay with via Apple Pay does not show any pending transactions.

[sevenlayermuddle]

Thanks for trying, and sorry for the stress it might have caused

Fwiw, mine generates the confirmation and the til prints a receipt, which is the point at which checkout staff sometimes look a bit surprised.    The til receipt shows 'Contact less CP sale', the subsequent bank statement shows 'Apple Pay'.  I'm using a Nationwide debit card, and a watch not an iPhone, though I doubt whether that is relevant.

It all seems to point me to the same conclusion... That Apple have their work cut out to make it catch on, there are still far too many 'unknowns' around when it can and can't be used.   

So cool when it works, so uncool when it doesn't.  It's especially uncool when I'm served by one of the youngsters, and met with the kind of sympathetic smile reserved for tech-phobic grandparents, as they carefully explain that 'the limit is £30 and my bill exceeds that'

[speedyrite]

Yes I'm inclined to agree with you. I've paid by Apple Pay quite a few times since it started, but only for low value transactions. I was vaguely aware that some merchants allow Apple Pay for transactions greater than the normal contactless limit of £30, but there's no way of knowing beforehand whether or not it's going to work/be allowed.

[speedyrite]

Just had a quick scan through this week's "Waitrose Weekend" (6 October 2016).

The front page article is "A touch of convenience as shoppers go contactless".

This article confirms that the limit for contactless is £30 (as we already knew of course). It also states that, when shopping at Waitrose (and presumably John Lewis), "For larger amounts, shoppers can use Apple Pay and Android Pay", "Extra layers of security mean you can spend up to your maximum debit or credit card limit" and "You can use your phone up to the limit of your card".

Co-incidentally, John Lewis Financial Services (there's some involvement with HSBC behind the scenes) is revamping its website this weekend for re-launch tomorrow, and all new and replacement John Lewis Waitrose Partnership credit cards issued from tomorrow onwards will be contactless cards.

They are also launching a mobile app tomorrow for Apple & Android platforms.

Curiously though, no mention of the card being available to use via Apple Pay.

[sevenlayermuddle]

That's all interesting, thanks.

Slightly off-topic from transaction limits, but I noticed a leaflet enclosed with a recent bank statement, entitled something like 'important changes to your T&C'.

Buried in the small print it went on to say that, if a customer registers a card for mobile phone payment, and if they share the phone passcode code with anybody else, or allow anybody else's fingerprint to unlock the device as required to make payments, they'd treat the customer as deliberately failing to keep details safe.  And presumably then, they'd refuse to compensate for fraud.

Something to bear in mind, for anybody using a phone for payment.  There is no mention of spouses being an exception, but  I bet a lot of people allow spouses or other halves to know the passcode or to have a fingerprint ID?   

[speedyrite]

Bit of a minefield then!