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Author Topic: Advice on poor quality line  (Read 35038 times)

S.Stephenson

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2016, 05:30:24 PM »

I wonder if when they put the cables in the ground in the 1960/70's they expected them to still be in use in 2016  :D

How hard is it to replace a DIG cable assuming there is no telephone poles? I'd expect it to be a messy and expensive fix.

In my ideal world we'd all have graphene ducting with fiver optic cables  :lol:
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Black Sheep

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2016, 05:38:46 PM »

Who knows what the thinking was regarding technology back in the day ??? I think if they could have had a glimpse of what was to be, they'd have been in awe with the advances made ??  :)

Replacing a DIG is only as difficult as the ground surface of the premises. If the DIG has been proven faulty we fill out an A55 document that shows an OS of the premises in question. We then fill out the necessary details such as surface (Grass, tarmac, block-paving, etc), the total distance in metres of each surface area, and where the new external connection block (BT66) is to be fitted.

Our contractors will then either dig in a new length of duct from the pavement to the BT66 and provide a draw-rope to pull in a new cable, or if this proves unachievable, will dig in a brand new armoured cable.

The EU signs a disclaimer accepting work to be carried out on their premises, which states that if they are not happy with the reinstatement our contractors will return until they are. I have to say, the majority of work I've seen performed you wouldn't even know they'd been. Very good at what they do.
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Starman

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2016, 05:45:53 PM »

The EU signs a disclaimer accepting work to be carried out on their premises, which states that if they are not happy with the reinstatement our contractors will return until they are. I have to say, the majority of work I've seen performed you wouldn't even know they'd been. Very good at what they do.

Pretty much the same on the DNO side - we will reinstate whatever was originally there with the major exception being the likes of the current fashionable printed concrete driveways.
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MaximusPrime

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2016, 05:50:30 PM »

@Black Sheep,

the cable would have been dug in & runs under our home, 1980 approx. We don't live on an estate. I live in N.Ireland so maybe the procedure was of lower quality here at the time. I have attached the layout of my telephone network.

A Senior OR Engineer with 40 years experience said the cable would have been low quality like the 1 that goes into the back of a router. He swapped the pairs in the main cable. He didn't mention a second pair coming into the house though. Pretty sure the pair was an orange & white pair.

My internet is fine in good weather but drops out for days if there is cold weather. Heavy rain will lower my connection rate too. How do I prove this problem exists because by the time a OR Engineer arrives the weather has changed
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Black Sheep

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2016, 06:04:24 PM »

Crikey ....... if I could answer your question I'd probably be sat poolside at a mansion in Miami !!!  ;) ;D

There is nothing you could do other than explain the happenings with changes in weather, to the engineer. With the greatest of respect, please try and understand we can't just go spending thousands on providing new duct and cable on the say-so of the EU, and their observations of the weather.
We have to prove conclusively that the cable is completely 'shot' before a change out will happen. The only saving grace might be that IF this is the underground feed to your house that is faulty, they don't improve of their own accord ...... it will get steadily worse until the fault is prevalent at all times.

I think based on Mr Cats and W3's observations above, you may be better leaving this until it degrades further as it appears your service is working ok via the stats provided ??? of course it's up to you yourself, some folk can live with it ..... others are tenacious to the point of madness.  ;) ;D
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MaximusPrime

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2016, 06:10:57 PM »

@Black Sheep,

If I sign up for My DSL Web Stats do you think that would help to record faults for OR to view?

I literally can't have another Winter of disconnections cause I work in IT & need my Internet connection.

How much would it be to get an overhead cable from Pole 2 into my house do you know?

cheers
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WWWombat

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2016, 06:15:25 PM »

It is a complex function, involving both real and imaginary numbers. (The equivalent Hlin function actually shows both real and imaginary values per sub-carrier.) In the broadest sense, it is often useful to consider the Hlog plot to show the equivalence of attenuation over frequency.

In the latter simplistic terms, I try to think of the Hlog graph giving an indication of the attenuation, and how it varies across the frequency spectrum. Most importantly is the need for it to be a nice smooth curve - and this one is precisely that. It is when we see dips and oscillations in this graph that we begin to suspect the line has physical problems.

For what little we can see, there is no evidence of a "smoking gun" . . .

Not even the SNRM graph? The fact it currently reads well above 6dB tells us something ... that either DLM has banded the line, or there was a lot of noise at the time of the last sync, that has now disappeared. That suggests the line suffers from something, even if it isn't currently visible.

The QLN graph isn't too bad - it generally represents a low noise line, with the usual kind of "spikes" from radio stations. For example, around tone 115 - my line has a similar spike.

However, there is something of an extra "bulge" between tones 80 and 110 that isn't the normal kind of spike. It might explain a few missing bits around tone 110 ... but I doubt that it is a portent for a large amount of missing speed.

Just as WWWombat has mentioned, above.

Can we get a look at what these other graphs look like at present? Ta.

but drops out for days if there is cold weather. Heavy rain will lower my connection rate too. How do I prove this problem exists because by the time a OR Engineer arrives the weather has changed

Such intermittent faults are the hardest ones to deal with - for both you and the BT engineer. Persistence in reporting issues certainly helps, as does an ISP that responds to issues quickly.

The best way we can help you is if you keep that monitoring software running as much as you can, catching good days as well as bad - something on there is likely to give us a clue when things go wrong. Not all of the BT engineers want to see the evidence afterwards, but sometimes it can act as a flag, so at least *you* know when things are going wrong.

If I sign up for My DSL Web Stats do you think that would help to record faults for OR to view?

I literally can't have another Winter of disconnections cause I work in IT & need my Internet connection.

It can't do any harm, and it helps people on here easily see all the details relevant to your line.
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MaximusPrime

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2016, 06:37:10 PM »

@WWWombat,

I have attached todays Bit Loading, HLog & QLN. SNR is 15db approx downstream. The weather is good today, Sun is out so I'm expecting no issues.

Quote
The best way we can help you is if you keep that monitoring software running as much as you can

I'm going to buy a Raspberry Pi & put DSL Stats on it & connect it to the Web DSL Stats
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Black Sheep

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2016, 06:38:41 PM »

@Black Sheep,

If I sign up for My DSL Web Stats do you think that would help to record faults for OR to view?

I literally can't have another Winter of disconnections cause I work in IT & need my Internet connection.

How much would it be to get an overhead cable from Pole 2 into my house do you know?

cheers

It shouldn't cost you anything. If, as I say, a definitive fault has been identified and there is scope and capacity to feed your premises via an overhead option ...... then I would humbly suggest that would suit not just you, but also Openreach's bottom-line also ??. It would be a far cheaper prospect for them than the alternative 'dig & duct' option.

I have to keep putting the point over though, we are categorically told we must NOT perform speculative changes, we have to PROVE where the fault exists. I absolutely appreciate this is a bane for the EU and if I can play the world's smallest violin for a minute, it is for we engineers too.
Should we attend a fault, and the EU re-reports it a few days later (anything up to 28 days later as a matter of fact), then we are treat like war-criminals until we can provide a defence that states all the required tests passed and their was no actual fault to try and rectify.

Intermittency = woe on all sides of the fence.  ::)

[Moderator edited to fix the mishap with the quotation.]
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 07:18:02 PM by burakkucat »
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MaximusPrime

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2016, 06:45:59 PM »

@Black Sheep,

cheers for the input, it helps me better understand the Engineers side of things.

After last Winter & 4 Engineer call outs I'm getting the feeling I'm gona have to end up paying :(
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Black Sheep

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2016, 06:50:59 PM »

No worries mate.

I do feel for you and your predicament, and money talks so you could ask for the feed to be provided overhead if it fits our scope and has the capacity to do so ???.

But, you may end up paying for this and the intermittent fault may actually be a few hundred mtrs away from the telegraph pole ?? it's a pricey gamble.  :)
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MaximusPrime

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2016, 06:56:44 PM »

@Black Sheep,

that's a good point, I'll set up my line monitoring tools to catch the errors when the bad weather starts again & take if from there,

cheers for the advice :)
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Black Sheep

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2016, 07:05:43 PM »

No worries. I'm a small cog in a big wheel that is Kitz ....... the guys above are especially brilliant at analysing stats, so My DSL is deffo the way to go.
You will be an expert yourself within weeks ............ just watch.  ;) ;D
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WWWombat

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2016, 12:19:52 AM »

I have attached todays Bit Loading, HLog & QLN. SNR is 15db approx downstream. The weather is good today, Sun is out so I'm expecting no issues.

Sorry, I really meant the other set of information. These ones:
To see dynamic problems (such as a line dropping in bad weather), we are likely to need to consider graphs over time - particularly the attenuation, SNRM, sync speed, attainable speed graphs, plus the error-tracking graphs (FEC, CRC, ES, SES and retransmission graphs if they apply), plus the DLM-affected data (INP, delay etc from the "telnet data").

Just to see the kind of behaviour being experienced on a good day.

Good luck with the Pi.
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MaximusPrime

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Re: Advice on poor quality line
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2016, 12:38:51 AM »

@WWWombat,

I have DSL Stats running on an old Linux machine I haven't been keeping it on, I will when I get my Pi set up.

I have attached some of the data you requested though. My SNR drops quite a bit at night
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