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Author Topic: Strange happenings on my line yesterday  (Read 58418 times)

broadstairs

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #225 on: July 21, 2016, 11:43:41 PM »

You are indeed correct Tony about the timing however it still does not show any subsequent re-syncs or the AS time would be different.

Stuart
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tbailey2

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #226 on: July 21, 2016, 11:45:19 PM »

Correct, no subsequent resyncs.
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WWWombat

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #227 on: July 21, 2016, 11:56:26 PM »

I can offer no advice as how to progress this fault to a satisfactory resolution . . . but will follow this thread with a significant degree of interest.  :-\

I'm in a similar vein here. I can offer the following:

Spotting when the line is bad:
The current banding means that the *speed* is no longer a good indicator that things are going wrong with the line. Similarly a "non-standard-but-flatish SNRM" doesn't tell us much. Every time I look across all the graphs, the best indicator I can see that correlates to "fault-being-present" is a higher-than-normal attenuation value. A secondary indicator is a variable-jittery SNRM.

Getting Openreach to attend when the line is bad:
Openreach can only fix the fault if the line is bad at the time they attend ... which is obviously delayed from the point you first notice the issue. In one sense you are lucky - because your fault tends to stick around for some period once it has occurred. However, TalkTalk are getting in the way here, because the fault doesn't hang around long enough for their incessant pauses and delays.

What will help you most is if you can get Openreach to attend ASAP after the fault is first noticed. Bypassing the TalkTalk delays as much as possible.

What you probably need to do, as an outcome from this visit, is to talk to the TT team, and get them to agree
- Your fault is intermittent.
- That, when it occurs, there is a window afterwards when Openreach could detect and fix it.
- That it needs an appointment arranging as soon as you can see it next occurs.
- That your fault remains open, so that the pauses and delays can be bypassed next time.
- That you will monitor, and phone as soon as you see the problem re-occur.
- They will arrange an appointment without delay.

If anyone else can add something to speed up the TT-delay -> Openreach appointment time, please add it...

MDWS already does way, way more than I had ever envisaged but isn't and never will be infallible so please don't expect it to be.

I agree. I tend to not bother looking for the resync indications added by the monitors, and just look for disjoint data: sudden jumps in SNRM, sync speed, attainable speed, or power.

Or I look for "gaps" in data - which might show as a physical gap in the graph (as in broadstairs "SNRM" graph), or it might appear as a sloping line that shows on the graph, but can't be hovered over in the normal way (showing "dots with data"; such as the "Sync Attainable" graph). In latter cases, hovering only produces a "dot" at the extremities of the slope.

however it still does not show any subsequent re-syncs or the AS time would be different.

I concur. There is no sign of anything other than the one disjoint period.

but that does not mean you do a test and GIVE UP, which is what OR are doing in my opinion.

Unfortunately, this is one of the consequences of Ofcom's version of "competition", and the dash for "pile it high" cheap services. I suspect the desire for a "known appointment time" is a significant constraint on flexibility. Altogether, there is a need for appointments to be constrained, with little time for "engineering perfectionism" in the face of a potential wild goose chase.

OK it does not help at all when TT do not take these issues seriously and try to get OR on site while the simply MUST be able to see an issue is live. If this were the first call out I might accept it but this is the third call on the same issue and has not been resolved. None of this is acceptable and I will not put up with this situation. Believe me TT and OR do not know what will hit them if they don't take an indisputable issue seriously.

One aspect of support that works really badly is dealing with complicated faults that run over multiple calls/appointments. Our current model of interaction between ISP and wholesaler makes this horrible - especially when you encounter an ISP whose procedures force more delays.

I'm pretty sure you'd have a better experience if this were going via AAISP's support group. It wouldn't be fixed in one go, but it would run around the cycle faster.
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burakkucat

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #228 on: July 22, 2016, 12:12:02 AM »

As for what the last attending Openreach technician did at the PCP, it is an unknown . . . other than it did not cause a resynchronisation event.

I think we can all imagine the following (having noted Stuart's description of where the PCP is located) . . . The van pulls up, with the two nearside wheels on the pavement, over the double yellow lines at the corner with hazard lights and amber beacon operative. Openreach technician opens the PCP and sees similar to that below, then notes a "jobsworth" traffic warden homing in on the van, whilst sucking in her cheeks, ticket book all ready for action. The PCP doors are slammed shut, locked and away goes the van . . .

[attachment deleted by admin]
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NewtronStar

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #229 on: July 22, 2016, 12:37:18 AM »

Look at all those gel crimps how the hell could a engineer find a users pair in that BLEEP  :o
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WWWombat

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #230 on: July 22, 2016, 12:45:51 AM »

Use one of these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BT-Engineers-Tone-and-Probe-Deluxe-Set-Openreach-Virgin-Media-87J-109J-17A-/272297244062

Attach the oscillator to the line at the customer end, and take the probe to the cabinet. When the probe is within a few cm of the right cable, it will let you know.

or, of course, use the cabling records  ;)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #231 on: July 22, 2016, 05:49:57 AM »

Lets get something straight here over timings. The initial testing started at around 14:26 and finished at about 15:25 and I reconnected the router while the engineer was with me and showed him the re-sync stats. Now if he was going to do some testing it would take him probably 5 minutes to get to the cabinet park up (which is not easy where my cabinet is situated), then open it and cause a disconnect which would have lasted more than a minute which means that neither DSLStats or my router would have missed the disconnect - IT DID NOT HAPPEN. So IF he went to the cabinet and did anything it DID NOT cause a disconnect and re-sync - so frankly my interpretation of what he said which WAS that whet he was going to do WOULD cause a disconnect is bull***t as I suspect was his description of how FTTC works. This guy was in my opinion significantly less than effective than the previous broadband guy who at least viewed my graphs and agreed I had a problem which he agreed had probably gone away but at least he did a reset which put me back to around 65mbps d/s and 20mbps u/s which lasted for about 11 days!

So now I am left with a line which is connected at less than the worst speed which the Wholesale Speed tester says I should get if impacted and well below what it has been performing at prior to all this happening. TT are probaly goping to say that DLM will over time put it back but previous experience says it will not happen.

Yes believe me I am only too well aware from personal experience when I was working as to how difficult it is to try to fix intermittent faults but that does not mean you do a test and GIVE UP, which is what OR are doing in my opinion. OK it does not help at all when TT do not take these issues seriously and try to get OR on site while the simply MUST be able to see an issue is live. If this were the first call out I might accept it but this is the third call on the same issue and has not been resolved. None of this is acceptable and I will not put up with this situation. Believe me TT and OR do not know what will hit them if they don't take an indisputable issue seriously.

Rant off  ;)

Stuart

sadly openreach are just doing what they agreed with ofcom and the CPs as acceptable.

Ofcom accept it because they only cared about low wholesale pricing, even if quality went down the gutter.

It stinks, they basically only checking for voice quality compliance, but openreach will just see it as they complying with what they have contracted with the CP.  Occasionally engineer's show up who have pride in their work and will go above what they need to do, but is luck of the draw.  I think CPs can order engineers that will do more than just the sin compliance checks but of course this costs more money, and they probably wont tell you if they doing that.
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roseway

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #232 on: July 22, 2016, 06:56:33 AM »

I think this is an issue for Eric and Tony to review and perhaps record monitor start ups but that is for them to decide.

I haven't been ignoring this, but I'm afraid that personal circumstances are such that it's difficult finding enough time to do jobs which are already on the list...
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  Eric

Black Sheep

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #233 on: July 22, 2016, 07:36:43 AM »

B*Cat ....... we are told one is not allowed to use 'hazards' and 'rotating beacon' at the same time, it's one or the other. Also, there are agreements in place with local councils that we are allowed to park on double-yellows so long as we display the required notification on the van dashboard ..... ie: arrival on-site time etc etc .....  :)  :)

NS ...... as W3 points out, we can use a manually applied tone and amp set to identify a circuit, alternatively we can apply an automatic tone by using our mobile phones, rather than having to use the manual set. Both send a low-frequency tone (like a beep-beep noise ) down the line, and our amps (Amplifiers) can hone into which pair of wires it is on.

However, before either method is deployed, simply using the counting technique will bear fruit in 95% of cases ....... the pair of wires in the very top left hand corner are allocated as E and D1, then working towards the bottom of the strip which will be E and D100. The 2nd strip then starts at the top as E and D101 ............... and so on ................

There are different kinds of Cab terminations though and 'Counting' can become impossible on the much-hated 'Midland Shelf Cabinets' ......... nasty b'stard things they are  >:(.
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broadstairs

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #234 on: July 22, 2016, 07:42:28 AM »

Eric no worries, this is a minor issue and now we have cleared the air about re-syncs and recording them in MDWS I don't believe it warrants any urgent attention I suggest add it to the list of things to do IF/when you get time  ;)

I just had DLM intervene this morning now back at 54564kbps down and 20000kbps up, so for once DLM has done something right  :o and now to see how long before it lowers interleaving which is 2003/1 and delay of 11 and of course how long before the problem hits once again ;)

Stuart
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tbailey2

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #235 on: July 22, 2016, 08:01:23 AM »

RESYNC SOLUTION
Rest easy Eric  :)

Having stared at the code for several hours (I need some sleep), I've worked out a way to hopefully get sight of resyncs that occurred some time back when the line was down, hours, days or even weeks possibly. Each uploaded data log from the modem contains the info for the last resync so this can be done. It hasn't been because I need to write the database query completely and that I have now done.

So now, when a line comes back up the resync check looks back a period of time to see if there are any unrecorded resyncs that are later than the last recorded one for each user. For now it's just 4 hours (rather then 15 mins as currently) but it is running as of 07:40 and hasn't generated additional resync messages which was a worry. I'll increase it once it all looks like it's working, probably to 24 hours initially.
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broadstairs

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #236 on: July 22, 2016, 08:05:12 AM »

Sounds like a plan Tony... thanks

Stuart
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WWWombat

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #237 on: July 22, 2016, 12:24:49 PM »

the pair of wires in the very top left hand corner are allocated as E and D1, then working towards the bottom of the strip which will be E and D100. The 2nd strip then starts at the top as E and D101 ............... and so on ................

The principle is the same as cabinets with Krone strips, though, isn't it?

That the E-side pairs end up located somewhere known within the cabinet, provided you know the pair number. Same with the D-side pairs.

And that a job to connect any one subscriber to the exchange entails adding a shortish length of jointing wire, so as to connect the right E-side pair with the right D-side pair. It just looks messy...

The obvious next question ... in an existing cabinet full of gel-crimps, what happens to FTTC tie pairs? Do they get krone strips added? Or do they end up relatively loose like the D- and E-sides?
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Black Sheep

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #238 on: July 22, 2016, 02:57:13 PM »

To answer your question about FTTC 'Ties' ....... it is totally random. In the picture posted above in this thread, I can tell just by looking that the FTTC ties are on the far right hand strip. As this is a 'Gel crimp' Cab, it would follow to make the new 'Ties' exactly that as well.

However, in many other instances the 'Gel crimp' Cab will see the new 'Ties' presented on BICCS/Quante strips, or NON-IDC strips .......... there doesn't seem to be any rationale to it, just what the planner/installer has decided upon at the time !!.

To answer your other question, yes indeed ...... we run one piece of Cab jumper wire to connect up the 'Copper' E side to 'Copper' D-side if the EU is wanting ADSL or simply a PSTN connection ............. if they are wanting FTTC, then we have to run two jumper wires to cross-connect the services.
It matters not whether it is a 'Gel crimp' Cab or a typical IDC Cab ....... they still end up looking messy ....... I suppose the 'gel crimp' one does have the edge though, when it comes down to it.  ;) ;D
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burakkucat

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Re: Strange happenings on my line yesterday
« Reply #239 on: July 22, 2016, 03:20:46 PM »

Attached, below, are two images of within PCPs which each have an associated "fibre twin" cabinet.

The first image shows one pair of tie-cables at the right hand side of the cabinet. Each tie-cable has a "cabinet-height" length of outer sheath  removed, the respective wire bundles grouped together (with cable ties) and hanging from appropriately placed hooks. When a circuit is enabled with a G.993.2 (VDSL2) service, the D- & E-sides have the existing gel-crimps removed and the relevant pair from each tie-cable crimped to the afore mentioned freshly isolated D- & E-sides. (For those who are considering the total number of crimped joints per G.993.2 enabled circuit in such a cabinet, it is doubled.)

The second image shows one pair of tie-cables terminated onto Krone strips. (Note the legend above the Krone strips . . . someone had accidentally terminated the pair of tie-cables in the incorrect positions.) When a circuit is enabled with a G.993.2 (VDSL2) service, the D- & E-sides have the existing gel-crimps removed and are extended (with blue/yellow jumper cable) across to the Krone strip field. (For those who are considering the total number of crimped joints per G.993.2 enabled circuit in such a cabinet, once again, it is doubled.)

(My thanks are due to Walter for providing the two original high resolution images from which the attachments have been created by cropping and scaling.)

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