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[Black Sheep]

Current projections are for less that 900 Cabs to have vectoring deployed. I won't quote the figure for the vectoring engine cards, but they are very cheap for the gains they will bring to both the EU, and/or the commercial targets BTOR have been given.

Just my humble opinion. 

[gt94sss2]

I would have thought rolling out vectoring would be an advantage in that by removing crosstalk it would encourage some on existing cabinets who can't get 55/80mb to upgrade to faster speeds and increase data usage - as well as more stable lines (less faults?)

Of course, one shouldn't also forget the expected benefits of introducing a 3db profile where BT expect:

100% average increase of 10%
90% average increase of 15%
50% average increase of 17%(i.e.the median increase expected)

[niemand]

What value does it bring to CPs though, beyond maybe fewer faults, although crosstalk rarely has them raised from what I can see?

CPs don't want higher data usage. They would be quite happy with people paying and not doing anything

[gt94sss2]

The benefit would largely fall to Openreach who would benefit from the higher data usage (+ less demand for engineer visits) and to the end users who get the higher speeds.

You are right it would be of less direct interest to CP's though they may sell some more expensive retail packages and fewer support calls - unless it comes down to the need to offer higher speeds to compete with cable. (Edit: and of course their CPE already supports the technology)

Of course, with something like vectoring, it's Openreach's decision if they want to roll it out - the CPs don't have much say..

[niemand]

unless it comes down to the need to offer higher speeds to compete with cable.

There is no competition with cable in terms of higher speeds. G.fast will be left behind on headline speeds immediately. Speaking with some CPs they accepted that headline speed competition isn't going to happen a while ago.

Higher usage isn't really of much benefit to Openreach either. They may sell an additional Cablelink here and there but it's not like a BT Wholesale usage based billing arrangement.

[NewtronStar]

TBH we would be better off with a SNRm of 3dB profile than Vectoring as it costs nothing & no hardware needed and has the same result or even better than vectoring

[niemand]

Both would be better still.

Neither and G.fast or FTTP would be yet better. FTTC / VDSL is last decade regardless of vectoring or SNR margins.

[Chrysalis]

I do think ignition is been a bit harsh/cold in his opinion.  Even black sheep see's a benefit in rolling this technology out.

The problem is how BT are looking at the value of the technology.  Sadly they seem to be adopting VM's method of thinking now.

In terms of value in the following areas, the benefits of vectoring are huge, this is further amplified by the fact that g.fast will not be available to many in the forseeable future meaning vdsl2, is the best BT will be offering.

Customer Satisfaction
Line stability
Fault Reports - yes many faults are complaints about loss speed due to crosstalk. also that even if a disturber doesnt affect line speed, they can affect error rate which in turn can trigger DLM.
Speed of line, even the modest gains from openreach data (which are low compared to trials) of 10-16% is enough for user's to be grateful.

My line as an example, when I first got this pair I had circa 0-3 ES a day on my US and about 120-150 a day on the DS.  Even tho my US speed hasnt really dropped the error rate is now about 30-80 a day and the DS about 150-300 a day (with the DS losing about 2mbit of sync speed in the time period).

Also the cost of the cards in the grand scheme of things is actually small for a company with BT's turnover.  The problems is their accountants obsess over "every" cost whether small or big, and have probably very coldly only looked at what marketing gain vectoring brings, which sadly is none.  Its all about marketing these days, not customer satisfaction or reduced level of faults.  I suspect if openreach wasnt behind a shield of CPs (dealing direct with consumers) things may be a different story.  To put into perspective, vectoring cards will definitely be cheaper than deploying g.fast cards and benefit almost everyone, but the latter offers something new to market hence been approved.

[niemand]

I suspect you strongly overestimate how much the people for whom broadband delivers the Netflix in Netflix and chill are really bothered about such things.

[Chrysalis]

yeah but those people wont care for g.fast either to be fair, vdsl2 is enough for them to watch netflix without issues.

[niemand]

True, though it makes for good marketing.

If it were really such a big deal for end users and hence CPs they would be climbing all over Openreach for vectoring - they aren't.

[Ronski]

Sadly there's only a very small percentage of EU who know anything about broadband, that's probably why there's not more complaints. I for one would like vectoring, especially if it was to improve my upstream which has halved since I've had FTTC.

[ejs]

Well of course everyone would want vectoring if it's going to make things better and not cost you any extra.

If there are going to be endless complaints about how it's unfair that some people have got vectoring but they don't, I'd rather no-one at all had it, then they'd be less complaints about the unfairness of the situation.

[niemand]

Most people don't know much about many of the services and products they consume.

There aren't more complaints because most people have far better things to do than worry about a service that, from their point of view, serves their needs.

Given how this forum has become dominated by posts on G.inp I dread to think what would happen were Openreach to set about a large vectoring programme - Huawei would inevitably get it first as it's just a line card, and people here would be jumping up and down raising complaints with everyone from their ISPs to Ofcom to their MPs to whichever, if any, deity or deities they worship.

EDIT: Amusingly I write this in full knowledge that if a vectoring deployment were to happen I'd probably be at the back end of it due to needing node level.

[Ronski]

There aren't more complaints because most people have far better things to do than worry about a service that, from their point of view, serves their needs.

Not really, I know someone who's been complaining for a long time that his broadband is slow, he's still on 8Mbps ADSL when he lives pretty much on top of his FTTC cabinet. He did get as far as phoning his ISP who said his connection was going as fast as it could  I've no idea why they didn't suggest upgrading to FTTC as it is available. There must be loads of people who'd benefit from better speeds but just aren't savy enough to sort it out.