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Author Topic: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?  (Read 11319 times)

Bowdon

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Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« on: May 12, 2016, 06:32:48 PM »

I was just wondering if FTTP/H can be delivered by overhead lines, or does it always get delivered underground?

I'm thinking its underground only?

What if BT/OR slowly changed the overhead lines on the poles to fibre.. then could a FTTP/H be delivered that way?
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ejs

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2016, 07:24:08 PM »

I think FTTP can be done with overhead fibre optic cables. It might even be quicker to install, less digging required.
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Ronski

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2016, 08:04:57 PM »

FTTP is delivered via overhead lines, and as EJS says it's a lot quicker than the underground method (which is also used) to install, no digging, no clearing blocked ducts etc. There's been many posts on here about overhead installations.
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Chrysalis

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 08:33:48 PM »

answer is yes,. was done that way in america,

But BT probably wont do it.
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burakkucat

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 09:32:15 PM »

answer is yes,. was done that way in america,

But BT probably wont do it.

Completely wrong in respect to the BT Group plc and the UK.  :no:

FTTP can be (is) delivered via an aerial route just as it can be (is) delivered via an underground route.
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Bowdon

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 10:49:07 PM »

Thanks for the replies guys!

Hmm.. well with that information.. I wonder why BT don't work on improving the overhead system of installation. Less planning permission and better access to any maintenance too.

The underground ducts could be used for installing power cables to backup the cabinets and supply power. Maybe they could team up with the electricity companies to do this.

For the BT historians, I'd be interested to know, which method came first, overhead or underground telephone lines?
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renluop

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 11:09:33 PM »

May I ask a general and hopefully not too irrelevant question about use of fibre optic vs copper?

Is there an environmental benefit, apart from extending the life of metal reserves, in fibre? Does it, say, need less power?
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burakkucat

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 11:14:47 PM »

For the BT historians, I'd be interested to know, which method came first, overhead or underground telephone lines?

Overhead.  :)
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Chrysalis

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2016, 01:12:28 AM »

answer is yes,. was done that way in america,

But BT probably wont do it.

Completely wrong in respect to the BT Group plc and the UK.  :no:

FTTP can be (is) delivered via an aerial route just as it can be (is) delivered via an underground route.

am confused was I wrong about BT? or you agreeing with me?
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phi2008

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 02:26:33 AM »

Overhead lines are a big part of Vodafone's FTTP rollout in Ireland.
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Ronski

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 06:21:11 AM »

Not everywhere has over head lines,  our estate is all burried with no ducting,  and I'd imagine if BT started putting up lots of poles there would be complaints.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 10:19:45 AM by Ronski »
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c6em

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 08:04:53 AM »

Here is a video of a french FTTP installation via poles......with an exception ugly mess on the pole of fibre, JB's and whatevers at the end of the clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzLwAbL5UYY
I cannot imagine this sort of thing being permitted in a Cotswold village.

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Bowdon

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 10:30:19 AM »

I wonder what the power comparison would be to power multiple FTTP connections via an overhead line versus G.fast to multiple houses?

Which conducts power more efficiently, copper or fibre?

It would be good if BT set it up so that each node could be a seperate investment. Then also give rivals access to setup either their own nodes or rent one off BT OR.

It could be setup so 1. the ISP have to provide services via that node for a set period, and 2. they have to sell or give it back to BT OR after that period (or extend their contract). That node could then sink back in to an expanding system.
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WWWombat

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 10:34:32 AM »

I was just wondering if FTTP/H can be delivered by overhead lines, or does it always get delivered underground?

Here's one (first picture below) of BT's access infrastructure pictures for FTTP. This particular one is relatively recent, shows 2 levels of splitter, and a lot of aerial fibre in different forms:
- 96-fibre lightweight aerial cable, with a figure-8 configuration, where a steel strengthening element runs in a parallel sheath
- 36-fibre ultra-lightweight aerial cable, where the steel strengthening elements run within the sheath
- aerial blown fibre tubing, with integral strengthening elements.

This shows a lot of integration with pole-mounted boxes too ...

I'm thinking its underground only?

I think there are two separate elements of the existing network to consider:
- Distribution lines: How does the 25-100-pair cable get from the PCP to the DP in the street outside your house
- Drop lines: How does the 1-2-pair cable get from the DP to your house.

Either of these can be underground or overhead; it partially depends on the age and location as to the method chosen.

The combinations you tend to get are:
- Underground distribution (cables run chamber -> chamber -> chamber) with overhead drop lines (pole next to chamber; DP at top of pole; aerial drop-line runs overhead)
- Underground distribution, with underground drop-lines (strictly called lead-in wires). Ducting to hoes can be a number of forms
- Overhead distribution (cables run pole -> pole -> pole) with overhead drop lines.

Distribution can be a mix, swapping from underground to overhead as conditions require, or as later segments of the network preferred different ways of working.

The first picture shows a lot of options on the distribution side.

The second (rather older) infrastructure diagram shows more of the original thinking, but also shows the different drop-wire/lead-in wire options.

What if BT/OR slowly changed the overhead lines on the poles to fibre.. then could a FTTP/H be delivered that way?

They don't have authorisation to remove copper, so they have to add fibre instead of swapping copper out.

That is fine, and possible: we have some photo's from exactly this kind of deployment. See this post, and the link to imgur. When you see the photos of the pole-top, you'll see the thick cables running off left and right - those are copper. You'll also see thinner cables running left and right too, which are fibre. The remaining photos show the various cables dropping down the pole.

The downside of adding fibre to the poles ... is that poles have engineering limits on the amount of force they can be put on by large number of cables. If a pole is full, or full on one-side, then no fibre can be added.

If they hit that restriction on the drop-wire, I believe they have an option to remove the old copper drop-wire, and replace it with one that has both copper and fibre. I don't think there are any options if the pole is fully-loaded with distribution cables.

Hmm.. well with that information.. I wonder why BT don't work on improving the overhead system of installation. Less planning permission and better access to any maintenance too.
A couple of reasons:
- You might get better access for maintenance, but you need more maintenance. Being out in the open, ravaged by the wind and sun, makes the cable more likely to suffer from damage. Underground is better protected.
- I'm not sure it really is less planning permission. Planning requirements have gradually required all infrastructure to go underground as much as possible. There has been a temporary softening from the government to allow broadband infrastructure use poles, but that doesn't changes people's attitudes.

People don't like overhead infrastructure. Do you?

Two images of Austin, Texas...
- https://goo.gl/maps/TFy4umXu9842
- https://goo.gl/maps/bbxqhfPCoWk

The underground ducts could be used for installing power cables to backup the cabinets and supply power. Maybe they could team up with the electricity companies to do this.

So you'd now need to both clear and fix the underground ducts, *and* set up the fibre in the most maintenance-intensive way? I'm not sure that is the best option.

As for co-operation with electricity companies ... there are a lot of "shared use" poles around, with both mains electricity and copper. Unfortunately, it makes for much stricter access conditions to be able to do any maintenance work, and also seem to be banned from any new infrastructure. Is it worth long-term pain for the short-term gain?

I understand that there are starting to be some agreements to allow fibre onto these shared-use poles, so there is obviously a changing belief that it is worth doing.

For the BT historians, I'd be interested to know, which method came first, overhead or underground telephone lines?

For people who love details, there has been a study done by Analysys Mason to figure out spare capacity in ducts and poles (for PIA purposes), but it gives a good picture of the way that ducts and poles have been used historically.

See This survey document.

Pages 10-12 show the different types of distribution, showing that overhead distribution, tended to be not used for new work after 1968, but that overhead drop-wires continue to today.

Page 16 tells us that there are 24% of DPs are underground, and 47% are overhead - but it doesn't break the overhead ones down into the ways that the distribution is fed.

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WWWombat

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Re: Can FTTP/H be delivered by overhead lines?
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2016, 10:40:42 AM »

Is there an environmental benefit, apart from extending the life of metal reserves, in fibre? Does it, say, need less power?

If you run fibre all the way into the home, there is certainly less power needed in the access network: the only places where power is needed is in the home and in the head-end exchange.

But I'm not sure I could say definitively that it used less power in total. I think you'd end up using more power in the optical terminations in the head-end exchange, but I think it would be less power than is used by all the DSLAMs.

Of course, if you get rid of all the copper, then there is an implications that you also get rid of the System-X and System-Y exchanges, and swap to a VoIP-style structure. That probably would save power too.
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